Becoming a rock star at 7 (or 47) w/ Charity Marsh

Nikko Snyder (: 00:06

I'm Nikko Snyder and this is Parenting Creative. This podcast is a place to talk about the ways that parenting and creative practice intersect, how people keep making art and meaning while raising kids, how art and caregiving shape each other, sometimes in beautiful ways, sometimes in messy ones. But this project isn't just about juggling a creative life alongside parenting. It's about surviving this cultural moment with our humanity intact and raising kids who can do the same.

It's about anchoring ourselves to the practices that sustain us. Creative expression, interdependence, rest, reflection, nourishment, joy and resistance. I'm so excited for you to join me as I dive into these themes with diverse creative parents, including theater artists, musicians, spoken word poets, scholars, movement artists and so much more. Parenting Creative is an independent podcast and you can support us by leaving us a review

following us on social media, and sharing the podcast with your coven of creative caregivers. I'll share more about that in the show notes.

On this episode, I'm talking to community engaged researcher, multidisciplinary artist, collaborator, scholar, and parent of two, Dr. Charity Marsh. Charity is a settler living on Treaty 4 territory in Regina. She's a professor and the department head of creative technologies and design at the University of Regina and is internationally recognized for her research on hip hop cultures, popular music, gender and technology, media arts, and performance and activism in community arts programming.

MP) lab, which she founded in: 2007

becoming a rock star at seven or 47, donor siblings, also known as dibblings, making art with your children, the power of community radio, going fragile, and how creative practice can hold us in times of crisis. Here's my conversation with researcher, artist, collaborator, scholar, and parent, Dr. Charity Marsh. Charity Marsh, welcome to Parenting Creative. Thanks for joining me.

Charity Marsh (: 02:33

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Nikko Snyder (: 02:36

Awesome to have you here. I would love to start by having you introduce yourself. My perception of you ⁓ as a creative person in the world has been primarily more as a like a scholar and academic, but I know you're also a musician and make films and make community and community space. So I would love it if you could introduce yourself and how you see yourself in the world as a creative person.

Charity Marsh (: 03:05

Hmm, it's interesting because I think one of the things you sort of hit there is I, I do a lot of different things, because I think one of the things is always about responding to where I am. So responding to the people I'm with the communities I'm in, finding places to play and ⁓ make together. ⁓

So yeah, I'm definitely, I'm a scholar. I am on that sort of professional side. I'm the professor in Creative Technologies and Design. I'm the head of ⁓ Creative Technologies and Design, which is a new and growing ⁓ area for us here in Treaty Four at the University of Regina. ⁓ I've been here a long time in that role.

so over 20 years. But I am ⁓ very much invested in making ⁓ arts-based grassroots community programming. And I do that both through a research lens and also in the sort of, ⁓ I guess, my outside my passion practices or the things that I do. I do that with my children and my partner. ⁓ Creativity permeates all aspects of my life.

⁓ And so I would say, yes, I'm a scholar. I am a musician. It's actually sort of how I came to scholarship through, you know, the pathway of getting a Bachelor of Music, then finding, thinking I was going to be a high school band teacher and then realizing that was not the path for me. ⁓ At that time, right, I was definitely playing more ⁓ within the Bachelor of Music program, so a little bit more ⁓

conventional style of music program and it shifted and I let go of that and I've sort of been in this practice of really being invested in dance floors and the folks that make people move in particular DJs. ⁓ And I went and did my, up doing my graduate degrees, my MA and my PhD through a feminist lens and looking at various different

ting my MA thesis on Björk's: 1997

popular music scholar and ethnomusicologist. And ⁓ I was the first one here, popular music scholar in Saskatchewan. yeah. That's a little bit. And then we'll get to where I am.

Nikko Snyder (: 06:09

For sure. Thank you. Yeah, so thank you for that introduction to your kind of your professional and creative life. I would also love to hear a little bit about your parenting journey. I know like me, you came to parenting a little later on in your adult life. You're also a queer parent. I would love to hear about your parenting journey.

Charity Marsh (: 06:37

Yeah, I did it later in life for a number of reasons. ⁓ I chose to really focus on my career first and how that was going to be shaped. I was surrounded. I've always been surrounded by children. I've been drawn to children my whole life. We had many, I have three siblings and we also, my parents were foster parents and we had lots and lots of children join us throughout our lives. ⁓

for different periods of time from very short, you know, weekend relief, helping support other parents ⁓ to another family's all the way to having some kids live with us for many years and possibly like moving towards adoption and then that not necessarily working out. But ⁓ I've loved kids always. find I think I'm drawn to kids because there's ⁓ adventure and play and wonder and just

curiosity about the world and imagination in ways that we often tend to ⁓ lose or we compartmentalize them in different ways as we adult or we become adults. And so I did do that, but even though I waited to have children, I focused a lot on working with children and youth in particular. ⁓ created the IMP labs.

which are the Interactive Media and Performance Labs as a really important space at the university, a space, a hub for people to come and play with all kinds of technologies, music making, sound making, audio, video technologies. And I have children just arrive. I did a community program that really allowed folks to just come from all over. And so you would have a lot of young people and building programming.

through that and a lot through hip hop in particular. I got to a point though where I was like, yeah, no, wait a minute. I'm in my late thirties and I need to make a decision here if I'm going to have children. And I went ahead and did that. And it was a bit more of a complicated process at that time and also being a queer and in a relationship with a woman. ⁓

We certainly had to invest in medical assistance, right? And we also got to go on and do the choosing of a donor. It's very online shopping and it's, you know, there's lots of really amazing things that have happened with our donor. The donor ended up being, ⁓ we have a whole other side of our family kind of from that. Yeah, so I decided to have kids and

And right away, ⁓ had one at Ilsa's ⁓ at 39 and Axelina at 41, and I'm 50 now. So Ilsa has just turned 11 and Axelina will be ⁓ nine in June. And the thing with my kids, they've always gone everywhere with me. Basically, you know, they're strapped to me. ⁓

as little ones, but I did always, they've always just been part of whatever I'm doing. So whether it's in community program, they've spent a lot of time in the imp labs, they've spent lots of time traveling with me to conferences. ⁓ I've been nursing while I've been presenting a paper at a conference. Yeah, and they've always been around and I think

One of the things that's really been important for me as a parent is that to introduce them to lots of different kinds of creativity. So that's been number one and not necessarily sticking to only one thing. I'm really a person that I feel that you should try all kinds of things because for example, I had no idea I could do what I wanted to do until I saw it, right? Or until I engaged in that. So

⁓ That's a really important part of my parenting style is let's try new things and find when you do find joy in it, let's spend a little bit of time there and see what happens. And also, you know, making choices for myself to make sure that the children see me also finding and doing creative things that bring me joy. And it took me, that took me a little while, Having kids.

I dealt with postpartum. I went through a divorce when they were two and four. There's a lot that is going on. so I think one of the things is always when you're the primary parent and you're nursing and you're all of those things, I think you do get lost. And it's not because...

it's been ripped away from you. It's because you've lost something because you're doing something else and so focused on that and trying to survive all the other pieces, right? So that's, it took me some time, but then I really came back into my own creativity through, at that time it was Girls Rock Regina and now it's GRRR or GRRR depending on who you talk to. But it was coming back into that

Again, another grassroots movement that reminded me and brought me to a space of like, ⁓ right, my connection to not just listening to music and dancing to music, but to making music and supporting others. So I would say that I know I'm kind of talking all around this, it's everything is so intertwined.

Nikko Snyder (: 12:42

Yeah, you're weaving it together in a way that really resonates with me. And I think something that you were just touching on is this idea of wanting to invite kids into art making spaces with you and wanting them to develop their creative lives. And you are in this parenting journey and sort of centering how they're growing and how they're learning.

And then also looking for those ways to keep yourself whole and rediscover that part that does feel that it can be lost through that parenting. So I heard both things and what you were just saying, and I can really relate to both. Maybe you could talk a bit more about GRRR because I know that that's been a pretty huge inspiration for you both as a researcher and also on a personal level.

and that your kids are involved. And yeah, I'd love to know, I'd love to hear more about how that work within that organization has shaped you and your family over the years.

Charity Marsh (: 13:53

Yeah, it's been just a gift, I suppose. But it's done something really important for me and that has given me a chance to bring in a really meaningful way those things together.

Nikko Snyder (: 14:11

And a quick aside about this, you may remember us talking about GRR way back in season one, episode six of Parenting Creative. It's a volunteer-based organization whose mission is to amplify and empower the voices of female, trans, two-spirit and gender expansive youth and adults through music creation, collaboration and performance. By providing a safer space for creative expression, they cultivate leadership skills and advocate for an equitable and inclusive society. Charity wrote, directed and produced a documentary about GRR called I'm Gonna Play Loud.

which was released in: 2020

Charity Marsh (: 14:46

In 2017, I guess, no, maybe just the end of 2016, I was on mat leave with Axelina and navigating not just Axelina, but also having a two-year-old. And I had done a lot of work in hip hop. So I had spent over a decade creating hip hop programming for lots of within and in relationship with lots of communities. But I kind of was also at a point where I had had a couple of children.

I was recovering from that. was running a business. was a professor. I was trying to negotiate being a parent. And I would say that I felt a little bit lost. I had no spark for my research and for what I was doing. And I was just like, what's happened? And maybe I was aware of it and maybe not. But then I saw Danny Sekundiak and Amanda Skandred.

⁓ There was a notification that went out on social media that was saying, we want to run a Girls Rock program, a Girls Rock camp, is anybody interested? And it clicked for me immediately. I was like, I'm interested and I will support this and I will help host it at the university and I'll give you gear and people and what can I do to help and be involved? And I came back.

⁓ from Matleave in June and the first camp we held was in July. So we had done the work to build towards that. And it was incredibly successful and it kind of like, it just re-sparked for me watching all these kids ⁓ come in and hearing them talk about music and watching them like pick up instruments and learn it and write together and create a song and just like...

also be with all of these other women and non-binary folks that are on the team or leading. And just, was like so inspirational. Like it was just, and again, it gave me that spark back. And I was just like, okay, full on. And my children were too young to attend the camp, but they were very much part of it in there. They were helping set up and like,

at this two and four year old hauling these drums, you know, and all, you know, just I have these beautiful pictures of them working with the gear team and, you know, just playing and wanting to be so involved. And so it was so incredible that they were already there and they saw me differently. Right. Like it was like, ⁓ this is kind of what mom does. This is this is different. We haven't seen this side. ⁓ I mean, Axelina, I think was still was only one. So it still in the.

in attached right in the in the pouch. ⁓ But it continued that and then they continue to be part of the setup to be part of the presence to be at the showcase to be on stage with me at the showcase when I'm talking to the audience and thanking all the campers and their families right. ⁓ And then we know this you you bring young people into a space and you give them access to gear you give them access to

⁓ mentorship and knowledge and you open up space for them to feel that their voices are centered and really valued. of course, this makes change. This changes the dynamic for those young people. And then as we see that and we are encouraging and supporting them to take up space, what I saw was

ide of the camp bubble. so in: 2018

engaging with the children about it, I can say I did this too. And it was, I picked up an instrument, I'd never played a string instrument. Honestly, I played bass because I was like, there's four strings. I should be able to navigate this within a time because it's only just a weekend, right, with the camp for adults. And from that, I ended up being in this group and we started out as Abrupt Dystopia and still, however many years later, we're in this band, Sunset Embassy. ⁓

There's a couple things that happened there. think they, I was so excited and so nervous to play, but I, you know, I got all rocked up and got on stage and did it and my kids were right in the front. And they were just like, that's my mama up there, right? Like, and they got to see this passion and this like excitement and also vulnerability. I'm not a rock star. I've never played.

bass guitar, I suppose. But at the same time, I was also, and I was also so proud to be standing in this really rock star band where it was just like, you know, Sophie and Jory at the front, just powerful indigenous women, like rock stars, like, and had not done that before. And then, and Shana and Colette and myself, like three queers in the back and just like, it was like, ⁓ this is really cool.

And then to keep it going, we wanted to keep it going and we did so. And I think that ongoing commitment, even through COVID, we found ways to be together outside to practice and to keep going and to start to record. And I mean, I say this in the documentary, like the children were there, like, and if there wasn't an understanding, like I have the youngest children, even though I'm the oldest in the band.

If there wasn't an understanding of just like how that works, like how motherhood parenting kind of works, like in these kinds of ways, I wouldn't have been able to do it. And for me, it's powerful to demonstrate to the kids that you can do these things and it doesn't matter age, especially, you know, I talk a lot about, and I write about artists like Peaches who are in their fifties now, or even like,

ations also at camp. And from: 2017

in what the kids are saying now. Like, you can just see the shifts. And certainly, we have certainly seen shifts in this city for sure, because of what GRR has done, whether it's like, you know, again, those adults taking it out there and being not putting up with or challenging, ⁓ you know, systemic sexism in the scene, not standing for,

or even folks ⁓ putting on shows understanding that lineups need to be diverse and people need to see ⁓ more than just the standard rock dudes on stage. ⁓ There's definitely been movement. And for sure, when you walk into, like our band, walk in, like I said, I'm 50 now. When we take the stage, it...

Nikko Snyder (: 22:32

Yeah.

Charity Marsh (: 22:46

it's different and even what our songs are about. Although there's some fun, but there's some pretty like heavy, hard hitting songs that are about, you know, the lived experience of members in the band. And so those things have an impact. And I really think by bringing my kids always and letting them see, not letting them, having them

be witness, bear witness to this. And they encourage, right? Like they're very encouraging. Even now I'm doing singing lessons and Ilsa's doing singing lessons and I'll say, you have a big show coming up or an exam, you can take mine. No, mom, you need that. That's your time. And it's just like, so now there's a sense of valuing what everyone needs and that's being instilled. that was different. Cause of course when I...

I didn't have that growing up. Not that I, it's just the way that it was, my parents, my family, we didn't have a lot of money and everybody worked lots and everybody worked overtime and everybody worked and that was the priority, right? So, yeah, I feel sometimes when I look at my parents, I'm like, they're both really creative people that never had the opportunities to be creative. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Nikko Snyder (: 24:10

It's so amazing to hear about how GRR has transformed or is shifting the cultural landscape of Regina. I love hearing that. And I also love hearing about that, just what you were able to model for your children and for the community in stepping into all of that, like complicated experience of like joy.

and also vulnerability and nerves and getting to model that for your kids. And as you say, for them to be bearing witness to that for you. And then seeing that ripple out into how there's an appreciation and a priority placed on for you all within your family, that this is important. These are important things for all of you to be prioritizing this creative life. So I love that.

You have not yet maybe a little bit more about DRR just in that I know your kids, at least one of them is now involved and maybe just a little bit more about that experience for them.

Charity Marsh (: 25:22

Ilsa turned the age and we were so excited. And it was the whole year before, right? It was like, next summer I get to go to camp. I get to go to camp. And so, and they started in and they started, ⁓ she started playing in this, little band, they were called the Phoenix Five. And so they created this really great song. ⁓ We're different, different, different, but the same.

And so this beautiful song, it was like this airworm and they learned how to, one of the things that I saw, I saw this beautiful coming together. There were a couple of talkers in that band and a couple not talkers in that band and they figured out how to work together and to give each other space and a place for, you know, we always talk about in GRR is somebody, you take a step forward or you take a step back. ⁓

And they figured that out, but it was a really lovely song that they created together. And I had the opportunity to interview that band as part of my research around like the way that we need to, I argue that we need to listen to kids better and differently than what we do. We need to value what they're saying in ways that are so, they're telling us so much if we would just learn to listen ⁓ rather than, you know, either.

We come at it often with all the things already in our mind of what has to happen, right? This is the path and everybody get on the path and move forward and this is what you have to learn and this is you have to do it. ⁓ But I think, you know, this is, and this is again why I'm drawn to working with children and youth is that they constantly are pushing back against that in a way whether they know it or not. And they're just, actually trying to really tell you lots, ⁓ even not necessarily always in words, right? They're telling you.

in their gestures, they're telling you in the ways that ⁓ they respond or they let go, they've lost interest. So I think it's one of the ways that I think there's something really important about the way they learn to listen to each other in those moments, especially when you're working in a dynamic and you're learning to write songs together. You've never worked with this group of people before.

You're learning a new instrument, so you're vulnerable there. So the way that you listen there, I think, is definitely different. And so I was trying to get at that. And they really spoke, all of them, they all spoke to how they learned to do that work together. ⁓ And they were challenged by a few different things. And it wasn't easy, but they navigated it in a very short period of time. So that was really lovely. ⁓

And that song still sticks in my head. course, Ilse has been in it now three more or two more years, and this is the fourth year, I think, so has had a number of different bands. And Axelina started last year again. just like with anticipation, right? Like, especially because Big Sibling was in it for two years. They couldn't be and then they could. And they ended up playing drums and singing.

So they're again, really, really excited to participate. And this is one of those things that Axelina will just, you know, ⁓ I'm going to play this instrument today. I'm going to watch YouTube and I'll pick it up and I'll play it. so music has been something for them that they see. And they're of course in their other home. I mean, we have the kids have two homes and so their other home, I think there's kinds of focuses and joy.

on different kinds of things much more maybe ⁓ like engaging in other kinds of more athletic space kinds of things in the world. And so it's on that level, there's like certainly ⁓ a great value in that, but ⁓ I really definitely push different kinds of ⁓ arts, arts based, even arts based movement for me is really important, but it's, you know, it's something to encourage.

Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 30:01

You mentioned that your children have two homes, you have gone through a divorce. You also mentioned a little bit about your journey of selecting your donor and that you maybe have, is there a relationship there? And also I know you are in a single parenting

situation. And you do also have a partner. And it sounds like that has taken time to kind of figure out how that relationship works best for all of you in the context of parenting and kids and, and, even what language to, to use to describe that. So I just feel like there's so much richness about your family structure. And I'm sure with like lots of beauty and challenges and, and I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about that.

Charity Marsh (: 30:49

Our family, it certainly isn't what I initially planned, ⁓ but I'll start with when I chose to have children. Obviously, again, as a queer person, we went and it was like, needed a sperm donor. I don't have all of that. One of the things that's been incredible about that, ⁓ although...

The process was challenging. was quite disheartening. I did IUI for a number of times, so like six different times it didn't work. And I wasn't sure it was going to happen. And then I went to IVF. those are complicated things. I think the relationship to health care, the relationship to your body, of things go on there. ⁓ But I did end up actually

I had different, I had sperm of a different donor initially. And then literally right before I was going in for the first, for IVF for the first time, I got a call from the donor organization that I had bought from. And they said, you know, the one that you wanted first, we just got some in, would you like? And I was like, yes, this is a sign. You know, like whatever, let's try.

And that worked. so I ended up getting a number from that process. We ended up having a number of embryos. And that was Matthew. from that, we ended up being connected with many other families. So my children have lots of dibblings or donor siblings. my Ilsa is, I think, one of the older kids. And now there's like

I think there's over 50 and we're all too. We, we, many of us are connected and we have a Facebook group and we have gone and met. ⁓ so I took a Ilsa and we went to a, a dabbling reunion. ⁓ there are many dabbling, ⁓ cousins and, dabbling sip, like donor siblings in the Canada, in the States, in Australia and in the UK.

⁓ Anyway, so it's a very rich and interesting life in that also you're looking at these other kids who kind of look like your kids. So Matthew's genetics are quite strong, but you can still see all the other parents, like the other folks too in there. Like my kids look a lot like me, but they also look like these other kids. So it's a really interesting part of our life.

And it's also really cool because it's a parenting group where I'm like, we hear this has happened to my kid. Does this has this happened? And this is how we found out, you know, our kids are probably all allergic to Benadryl. Like, or just like other kinds of health things, right? You know, like braces or learning different capacities and.

So that's been really rich. And a lot of queer families, a lot of non-traditional families, which is nice there too. The other ⁓ piece I would say is for us, we do have ⁓ a ⁓ big family for the kids in that at their other house, they have their other parent and their parent's partner who is definitely they refer to the

⁓ to the other parent's partner as a step-parent and they all live together and it's important and they're very involved in the life and that's really great. I think it's important that they're supported in both homes and they build relationships with those folks that are such important parts of their lives. And then for us though here, the kids and I are in our own space and then my partner

lives a few blocks away. We're very integrated in that we share a vehicle and all of those things, but it's a different, like I definitely am a single parent. My partner has a really, I think, lovely relationship. Evie Johnny has a lovely relationship to the children in that, but we're all trying to figure out, we still always talk about what can we call it? Because it doesn't seem like a step-parent, but it's more than like a friend or like, you know, another

relative, it's an important relationship, but it's very unique. Again, it's around creativity and innovation. I mean, to the world, the children would refer to Evie Johnnie as a step parent so that people understand that it's the value of the relationship and the importance of it. to them, they see it as something different and ⁓ which is really a kind of a cool thing because it's, you know,

think it's okay to be trying to figure out expectations that are outside of the way the world thinks you should be. has been interesting because you have to get through that yourself, right? I had to get through, this person is supposed to take on these roles. I'm like, but that person doesn't, that's not the way that they want to be in relation with these children.

So I had to let go of that and figure out, this is a really valuable relationship that my kids have that's growing and evolving as they age. And they also have this beautiful relationship with Evie Johnny's parents, and they see them as grandparents as well. But it's just a unique thing. And I think sometimes we get trapped by social norms, the ways, expectations of how we should be, but also we get trapped by language.

especially like Evie Johny's trans, ⁓ one of my kids is non-binary. And so it's like, how do you, we don't have a lot of language to name these things ⁓ in relation to others, I think, because that's often how we do that, right? We make meaning of something through what it isn't with others in different kinds of ways.

familial structures, think that's really, ⁓ actually keeps us very stuck. And so we're trying to break out of that a little bit. ⁓ And yeah, my kids have a really, I think, lovely relationship in that way. And also Evie Johnny brings a whole other kind of, ⁓ a whole other kind of world to my kids in different ways ⁓ as an artist, as a socially engaged artist who's very

much embedded in ways of social justice and they're a digital artist and they're an artist that does many different things and works in across many platforms. again, at the heart of their work is generally like social justice. So I think that's also really important within the kids. Like they see the world through these lenses that they have access to. And I would say even, you know, their other parents, it's the same.

kind of like they have a particular lens in the world and it is tied to different forms of social justice as well. so I think on that level, the kids are definitely really immersed in what does it mean to be in relationship with others in the world in ethical ways and responsible ways, but also joyful ways, right? Because they're kids and we should all be thinking about that too. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 38:47

Yeah.

And one of the, I mean, one of the things I love so much about kids is just is how they can, they have the capacities to sort of bring, bring that a justice lens, but without all the baggage or something, right? It's like they can bring themselves fully and joyfully. And, and of course that's the way it should be. Like that's why would it be any other way to, you know, why would you treat somebody

any other way or I don't know, I love children for that, for that open, the openness of their spirit.

Charity Marsh (: 39:23

I

did get this, you know, we're always in these discussions with the kids and one of the things was just like, I don't really understand, like why wouldn't everybody just be pan until they found somebody? you know, like why would you limit yourself like when you don't even know all the people? Like why? You know, and I'm just thinking, oh, this is just so different and refreshing from when I grew up.

And it's really lovely to hear this sort of openness to understanding and being in the world ⁓ differently outside of those, you know, very like hegemonic norms. Like it's just like, ⁓ right. And now they've grown up in queer families and trans family. And so, and they go to a school that flies the queer flag that's, you know, like,

And even though it's not perfect, for sure, there's lots of it. There's always. ⁓ But at the same time, there's certainly a sense of openness and injustice. So for example, around the pronoun policy that was passed by the SAS government here, by the SAS party, no. My kids are just like, no.

this is wrong and here are the ways that it is wrong and you know so and also thinking about strategizing so just because a teacher maybe has to abide or strategize differently the children don't and so it's about no well we will respect and we will call this person what they want to be called and we will use the gender pronouns that they would like or their pronouns what they would like and ⁓ in spite of that and so there there's a kind of

you know, well, I could say this, right? With coming to Regina, it's not, it wasn't necessarily like the queerest place or very queer friendly. I mean, things have changed. Like Regina has developed a lot in a lot of different ways in the last 20 years I've been here, but it's not always open and safe. you know, so I do think it's important that when

Nikko Snyder (: 41:43

Yeah.

Charity Marsh (: 41:49

I always like even talking to the kids, right? It's the reminder of like, it's really important to always be kind and to be thoughtful. And if you hear others ⁓ not being that just to step in and support what what's happening. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 42:07

love what you were saying about the children sort of strategizing and really embracing their own agency around, okay, what can I do to resist this policy, which, yeah, I love that. It's also really interesting to me how you were talking about, you know, that in your relationship structure with Evie, Johnny and the kids and that it's, you know, finding the language to put to that is to sort of, for the world, outside world to understand it is maybe.

tricky, but you've created your experiment, you've experimented with what is it that works, like having your own physical spaces, and trying out and defining what works for your family.

Charity Marsh (: 42:51

Yeah, a big part of that was letting go though, right? Like letting go and not and being okay with it being outside of what people understood. Because two, it's also interesting, right? Because people think, well, I have a partner that I have a co parent that and I'm like, we don't live together and we don't share those responsibilities in the same way. So no, I am a single parent that does that all of that labor.

As I am going through this process of parenting, I really, really miss being close to my parents and my sisters. And they're all in Ontario. ⁓ And so I would say, you know, again, to another piece here has been how do I build family that I can call on to be supportive? And we do have those people like we have Lexi and we have

⁓ in our lives and Emily in our lives and other folks ⁓ for sure that would help and jump in. But it is a time where I just, have really, really missed being close to home. Like I have envy for others whose families are close.

no matter what, like that it takes a village, it so does. And so I would say that's something that, again, when we think about how do we build communities and families to support our kids and ourselves in parenting, those are big, big, big parts of the pie, big pieces of the puzzle. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 44:36

I want to pause for just a moment to thank you for listening. Parenting Creative is my labor of love. If what we're exploring resonates with you, I hope you'll take a few minutes to support the podcast and get involved in the Parenting Creative community. The best ways to do that? Talk us up to your friends and leave us a five-star review with a few kind words. And if you want more Parenting Creative in your life, sign up for our free email newsletter to get sneak peeks and guest announcements, behind-the-scenes stories, and deeper reflections on each episode. You can find links to all of this in our show notes.

Now back to my conversation with Charity. Okay, so yeah, one of the things that you mentioned to me when we talked the last time was that part of your approach to parenting is to include your children in creative practice if they so choose. ⁓ And one of actually one of our points of connection is that we both made radio programs with our children. That started through Regina's community radio station, CJTR, during the pandemic.

And that was a fabulous experience for our family. I would love to hear a little bit about that experience with your kids and also, yeah, just making art with your kids generally.

Charity Marsh (: 45:45

Yeah, think 91.3 FM CJTR was like so important to the community during COVID. It is important at other times. But I think at the helm at that time, it was Amber Goodwin, who you've talked to.

Nikko Snyder (: 46:06

course, Charity is referring to the very same Amber Goodwin who was featured in season one, episode six of Parenting Creative. In addition to being a visionary leader of nonprofit community institutions in Regina, Amber is a poet, musician, interdisciplinary artist and parent. If you missed my conversation with Amber, never fear. You can listen to it anytime wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you're curious to learn more about the community radio shows that Charity and I made with our families during the pandemic, I'm going to share some more information out in our show notes.

Charity Marsh (: 46:35

But as a creative problem solver, actually creative innovator, as I maybe would call Amber, what do you do when everything goes into lockdown and people stop advertising because nothing can happen and the world sort of falls out the way it is? one, on the sort of level of how do you keep a local radio station going?

n? when ⁓ it happened March: 2020

making radio for children and their caregivers at home from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m. five days a week. And we had the radio on and ⁓ it just happened that one of Ilsa's friends was singing on the radio and they were singing the ABC song. And so Ilsa was five at the time, Axelina three, and Ilsa walked into the room and heard her friend

And this had been, so we had been a week in some lockdown, so not around any other people. And immediately Ilsa just sat down on the floor and started to sing with this child on the radio. And I just watched this happen, this like moment where I'm just like, this is... ⁓

the way to build community when you're in isolation. So you can hear each other, but this is the way to do this. And so at that point, I asked the kids, do you think, wouldn't it be fun? You want to make some, you want to do some cool, fun stuff on the radio? And they were like, yeah. And to all of our enthusiasm at first. And so I put it out there to Amber and just said, do you want some content? And she said, do you want to do a show?

And, you know, we ended up doing the show for like a year and a half. ⁓ So it became much more. But I was like, yeah, sure, let's do this. What are we going to do? We're all at home. And I loved it because it was a way for us to connect with others, but it was a way also for us to connect with each other and to really ground ourselves in something ⁓ art, you know, creative practice can hold you.

in times of crisis, in different sorts of ways. And I think because of affect, because of it just, gives you something to like put energy into whatever that energy might be in that moment. And so we did this and initially when we started, it was very interesting because Evie Johnnie, right, had done lots of work with CBC. so initially it was all these like very polished ⁓

like mini documentaries, which took so much time and editing. And I was just like, this is not sustainable after we had done a couple of weeks. These are hour long shows and working with the three and five year old, not always like an easy, smooth process. At the same time, you know, they were really ⁓ interested. did shows on on all the different things like biking and

Nikko Snyder (: 50:13

Indeed.

Charity Marsh (: 50:22

learning to bike and ⁓ we brought in pick songs together, we did stories, we read a lot of books together, we did a lot of stuff ⁓ on talking about fear and anxiety and then we took up lots of social issues and big feels, right? All the big feels that children would be feeling and their caregivers too, for sure. then I really, I shifted and I said to Evie Johnny, we need to

This needs to be more real, more raw. And we need to let go. Well, actually, you need to let go of your, you know, like the need and the desire to make things smooth and perfect. And so, you know, when you make radio with three and five year old or even going on and children, they love to touch the mic. They love to the mic gets smacked around. There's arguments in the middle. There's

There's these beautiful moments ⁓ where I'm reading something or I say something like, Bare Naked Ladies, we played one of their songs and Axelina, they're really called Bare Naked Ladies? know, like just these kinds of very, or the Brodsky Quartet we were saying, and one of them was like the Broccoli Quartet, and I was like, it's not broccoli. So we had some really awesome conversations. So there was a lot of improvisation going on there and that's like one of the

pieces that I draw as a methodology, like critical improvisation. So thinking about, ⁓ you know, being open to just letting some of those, what you might consider to be flaws or mistakes, letting them become something really meaningful and about the process and also being real so others can connect to those sounds and to those kinds of like adventures with children, because that is just what happens.

And so that was a really, really ⁓ incredible experience we went on. I ended up editing after the first couple of months, I took it all on and, you know, even as things started to open up, they maintained some of it. So we kept going and they did it for after school. And then finally, I think it got to a point where the kids said to me, you know, I think they were at this point seven and five. And I think it was like, you know, mom,

maybe it's time for us to take a break. And I was like, yeah, OK, I have to respect that for sure. But what it did, like you, we have this incredible archive of them and us engaging with them during this really, really ⁓ just complex time in our history. And the richness.

of those voices. And that's one of the things I keep saying. I keep asking Evie, Johnny, I'm like, but I would really, when we get time, this is a project. I want to bring all that together in a different way. we did it a little bit with our reflective piece that we have this 11 or 12 minute piece about making radio with the kids and improvisation and what that meant. at the same time, I just, I...

it's so rich to just even hear those now. Like they'll come on and you're just, ⁓ that's like such a brilliant way, of course, to capture so much of what was happening, but also just to capture these relationships. Right? And so that is really beautiful. But I'm very grateful to Amber for like that work and that innovation because, you know, like

we got to be involved and it became such a rich experience. And we all learned a lot. We learned a lot about Zoom recorders and we learned a lot about audacity and we learned a lot about things that cause each other very big anxiety. over that time, there was less that Axelina was going through a period of developmental, period of saying, I don't want that part on the radio. I don't like that. I want this.

No, you can't use those photos. So there was a ⁓ shift too, of an understanding of what it means to be public. Yeah, it was really good place to also negotiate with the children, learn how to hear them and listen to what they felt and to learn like, okay, I need to respect their boundaries around this. So how does this play out? And in making art, I think,

sure those radio shows are art, for sure, in so many ways for me. ⁓ I'm drawn to the rawness of it too. I'm always drawn to process over the final product. I really am.

Nikko Snyder (: 55:24

That was such a gift to the community and to my family, to your family. And I can totally relate to what you're talking about just in that project, trying to tie this very neat bow around this very messy creative process with small children. yeah, letting go of that. I'm also trying to really work through that on this project too. ⁓ yeah, Evie, Johnny and Jeremy should...

Yeah. Should have coffee because yeah. I will be tasking Jeremy with listening to this episode and being like, okay, a little less perfection, a little more rawness is okay.

Charity Marsh (: 56:03

you

Well, and these are these are things I think these are moments because there are far more moments of mistakes. Right. And so what do we do with those? We cut them out, or we learn to value them as as really important parts of the journey, right? Like, you know, always going in sometimes like people go in thinking they already know the answer or what's going to happen. Yeah, but the richness I think is in

what comes up that's unexpected, what falls apart, and how you put it back together, right? Or how you move forward or sideways. are the moments of important life moments. Those are the moments where you're just like, here's where the learning is happening. Yes. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 57:01

It's really in the process. That's where it all happens.

Charity Marsh (: 57:05

Well, and oftentimes that's where the innovation occurs, right? You're like, ⁓ this, ⁓ and this is like, this is why my life, everything merges, right? And it's kind of interconnected, but it's like, our pillars are like experimentation, curiosity, play, provocation. I don't know. I think those are the kinds of things that I'm drawn to. I think I'm drawn to that with children too, cause they, and youth, challenge you to do those things. Why? Like even that, like,

Why are you telling me to do it like this? Or just like, it's not just like this resistance to adults. It's also like, ⁓ okay, but I'm trying to understand really and I want you to explain what you're talking about in a way that makes sense to me. ⁓ And I think that's again, that other piece I think of listening to kids. They're also often just asking you to make it.

relatable to them or meaningful so that they understand what you're talking about. Because there's so many rules. Kids, they constantly are being told and taught new rules of things all the time, whether it's school, whether it's social, all of the things. Well, why? Why don't we say exactly what we mean? Why do we have to make it nice? To make sure, why do we have to have filters? It's like, well, feelings, how do feelings come into place of others?

I don't know, think it's just, it's why I will always be, I think, really committed to working with children.

Nikko Snyder (: 58:40

I would like to create some space for you to touch on anything that we haven't yet. ⁓ and also to share any upcoming projects, if there are things that you would like listeners to know about that you're working on or that are important to you. ⁓ yeah, just want to open it up a little bit or anything that we've missed.

Charity Marsh (: 59:03

I would, I am really excited to be continuing my work ⁓ with not just GRR, but also there's a lot of things that GRR is doing, which I think is really important. And one is it's addressing ⁓ some of the ⁓ concerns raised, right? Like, so I think, well, doing the work to address those, whether it's

you know, through strategic planning, whether it's around looking at community consultation. So we just finished a big project there where we hired Tiberius ⁓ to be a consultant and we're looking, this is why the name change, right? So.

Nikko Snyder (: 59:44

And can you just back up for a second and maybe articulate those concerns? Are they around inclusion?

Charity Marsh (: 59:49

Yeah. So I think some of the concerns are around ⁓ one, then that girls rock vagina, it doesn't actually represent the communities we serve. of course, ⁓ GRR is ⁓ open to girls, open to ⁓ non-binary folks and gender expansive folks. And so that's really an important part. So it was like,

And a lot of organizations think are trying to address this. And it's a really important history. So Girls Rock Regina, we know that within music industries, ⁓ in local and national and international scenes, know that sexism is there. It's sort of omnipresent. We know that ⁓ women have often been, there's been a lot of gatekeeping for women.

Women are often left out of cannons, like the rock cannons or the pop, like different ways women are treated differently as they age in popular music or in music industry for sure. And we have seen a real lack of diversity on stages, in festivals and so on. We know this. Instruments are gendered in particular ways. Genres are gendered in particular ways and valued based on that.

⁓ We know that ⁓ young people, children are socialized to play and perform in certain ways. All of those things have been addressed and are being addressed by Girls Rock Camps. And that history is important. That's a history that comes, you know, out of the Riot Girl movement, out of other feminist movements. At the same time, there's still privileging of, ⁓ you know, binary genders. There's still privileging of whiteness.

in ways even in relation to blackness, which has been such, ⁓ you know, the foundation of so many musics. We know this. And so I think as the historical part of this as a feminist organization is really important, but it's also really important that the organizations ⁓ see that they have expanded their mission, their values. They are including non-binary folks and gender expansive folks.

And I think that's really, really ⁓ key. And for GRR, of course, girls, women, that includes trans women. That's just the way it is. We don't need to articulate that. I mean, we do articulate it when it's necessary to be very political. ⁓ But at the same time, so there's the name change. we look what...

what might that look like and what does community think about that? So we wanted some information on that. The other piece about that is, you know, the board has been made up of ⁓ primarily for since its beginning, like white, cis women, some queer, but really, you know, so what does that mean and how can we create diversity in the board? How can we create?

⁓ diversity, even more diversity in programming, which we've really done. How do we reach out and make sure that campers have access ⁓ from across, again, a real, you know, a range of communities that we're trying to serve. And so those are all pieces that we can always do better on. And those are pieces that we're trying to address ⁓ in this, the new strategic planning that has happened in the community consultation, in how we move forward. And so

you know, that's a really key point. And I think it's, it's awesome. It's, it's also about like how we understand and make sure that people feel comfortable in this, in the space when they're there. So using pronouns who preferred, you know, using pronouns that people have chosen for themselves, using names, just being inclusive in the way that we understand and think about, ⁓ experience and how

diverse these experiences can be. And so that's something that's really exciting that we're working on. Another really great project that I'm starting right now, and I have an amazing team of young researchers, in the sense of junior researchers, I don't know, they're all their ages, ⁓ but is I'm doing a comparative analysis, so across Canada, all over Canada, ⁓ of these ⁓

rock camp organizations, girls rock camp organizations who have and how they're changing and engaging. So how they're changing policies and thinking about different kinds of activism and social justice, what their values are, how they enact that. then so looking at that and creating that information as data for for resources across like all over Canada specifically so that people can use that work to apply for funding to

to fund programming, to help develop policy. It's also looking at really investigating how do these organizations see their work impacting their local cultures. So for me, the local is where things happen. That's where you have young people engaged in process and practice. That's where you have young people creating and making their first bands and getting involved, understanding that. So knowing what was happened here.

in Regina and looking at what's happening elsewhere will also be a way to bring this research together and think about policy creation. Think about how provincial music associations and other organizations can assist and continue to support. What does it mean to actually create and make meaningful change? how might that come to be if we gather all of this material together and sort of present it in different kinds of ways?

And so that's the big project that I'm working on right now. The project I'm working on with my kids, I would say, is really supporting their creative discoveries. So the kids started aerial arts ⁓ this past January, and they both have really, ⁓ they love it. They're very excited to go back to camp this year. They're really, one of the things that's really cool is that they

picked up on some really great role modeling by now actually a coach who was one of our campers for many years, Abby. And she always said, I have to do all of the instruments. I have to try them all. And so this is also what my kids are really dedicated to, is trying all the instruments to see where they like to be. yeah, so this year, ⁓ Ilse is heading towards

to the drums and Axelina is heading, I think, to base. ⁓ so we get to, I don't know, I feel like at one point we're gonna have a family band.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:07:02

That's the natural evolution of this.

Charity Marsh (: 1:07:04

So, you know, we play together. I think that's the key for us, play and then, you know, supporting that curiosity. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:07:19

Charity, I want to thank you so much. This has been just a really inspiring, thought-provoking conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time and having an excuse to connect and talk with you about all these wonderful parts of your life. Thank you.

Charity Marsh (: 1:07:39

Well, thank you. I agree. I was actually sitting on a blanket at soccer last night with Nicole Huck and saying, I get to do this. And we were talking about like the gift that you've brought to us ⁓ for us to like take the time to reflect on parenting in this through this lens, like the creative parenting lens. ⁓ When I reflected, it reminds me on how much I love thinking about this stuff and the ways that we actually are

whether consciously or not, engaged in this research on how to be a parent. Not a good parent or a bad parent, but this constant, this parenting thing, right? It's not innate. I don't feel like it's innate. So I feel like reflecting and talking about it is such a, it's a privilege. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:08:25

I do not feel it, isn't he?

Charity Marsh (: 1:08:38

So anyway, I was great. This was fantastic. you. Lovely experience.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:08:42

Awesome.

Good. Well, I'm pleased that that is your experience. And yeah, absolutely a joy for me. So thank you.

Charity Marsh (: 1:08:53

Mm-hmm.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:09:09

Get it.

to express more big gratitude to Charity Marsh for sharing her brilliant mind and spirit. I'll share more information about Charity's work in our show notes. At the end of our conversation, Charity also mentioned Nichole Huck, who is another magical being who was featured in Parenting Creative Season 1, Episode 3. You can link to that conversation from our show notes or listen anywhere you get your podcasts. I also want to thank you for tuning in. If you too are working hard to nurture your creative spirit while parenting or caregiving,

I see you in all the glorious struggle and I'm glad you're here. And if you want more Parenting Creative in your life, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. Engage with us on social media or better yet, skip the billionaires and subscribe to our email newsletter. Tips are also always welcome and can be sent by parentingcreative.com slash support or more directly by a simple e-transfer to info at parentingcreative.com. You can find out more about all of that at parentingcreative.com and in our show notes.

Before signing off, I also want to thank Natural Sympathies for the use of their song, Hello, as the parenting creative theme song, and my partner in life, parenting and podcasting, Jeremy Sauer, for his audio wizardry to make this podcast sound so good. Parenting Creative is created and recorded with gratitude for the keepers of the land on the unceded and traditional territory of the Sinixt in the Slocan Valley. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.