Breaking cycles & following your North star w/ Melissa Pintor Carnagey

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 00:00

This is the time, if none other, for us to be creative and for us to lean into our creative geniuses, our North Stars. They don't want that. They don't want that. They benefit from the versions of us who are in fear, who are suspended from action, who don't see our greatness and our fullest selves. They benefit from that.

Nikko Snyder (: 00:34

I'm Nikko Snyder and this is Parenting Creative. On this podcast, we explore the alchemy that happens when we embrace both parenting and creative life. Parenting Creative is a community for parents and caregivers who are using art and creative practice to nourish our whole selves so we can show up fully for our kids, our communities, and everything else we're passionate about. I'm so excited for you to join me this season as I dive into deep conversation with diverse creative parents, including theatre artists, spoken word poets, entrepreneurs, scholars, movement artists, and more.

Nikko Snyder (: 01:04

There's no one way to create art and no one way to parent. Learning from each other's beautiful differences is magical and I believe it can change the world. Parenting Creative is an independent podcast and you can support us by leaving us a review, following us on social media and sharing the podcast with your coven of creative caregivers. I'll share more about that in the show notes.

On today's episode, I'm talking to the inspiring educator, Melissa Pintor Carnagey. Based in Austin, Texas, Melissa is the parent of three young people ages 11, 15, and 26. They're also the founder of Sex Positive Families, which delivers inclusive, sex positive, shame-free sex education to families worldwide through their newsletter and online workshops. Melissa has also written two books, including Sex Positive Talks to Help with Kids, A Guide to Raising Sexually Healthy, Informed, Empowered Young People,

and the hot off the presses puberty book for kids 11 to 14 called Growing Into You, an inclusive, shame busting, get real guide to your changing body and mind. I've been a huge fan of Melissa's for a long time, but my reach out to them was very much a cold call. So it was a major boon when they agreed to join me on parenting creative. In we talk about starting your parenting journey as a teenager, tapping into your childhood passions to guide your adult dreams, the journey to becoming a published author,

Honoring your truth enough to risk leaving a bad situation to start your own business, disrupting the system by living your best life, breaking cycles, and giving ourselves self-compassion and forgiveness for the mistakes we inevitably make in this wild experiment called parenting. If you find yourself as inspired as I am by Melissa's journey, there's a bonus episode of Parenting Creative with even more of our conversation. You can get that by signing up for our free email newsletter,

In addition to bonus content, I use the newsletter to share guest announcements, sneak peeks, glimpses behind the scenes, and deeper reflections on every episode. You can subscribe at parentingcreative.com or in our show notes. Now here's my conversation with author, sex educator, entrepreneur, and parent, Melissa Pintor Carnagey.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey, thank you for joining me on Parenting Creative. Welcome. It's really nice to see you this morning.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 03:21

Thank you so much, Nikko. This is ⁓ such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you for having me.

Nikko Snyder (: 03:28

I'm really, yeah, just really thrilled that you agreed to do this and join me for this conversation. There's a ton that I want to ask you about and talk with you about. So I think we should just jump into that. I would love it if you would just take a few moments to introduce yourself, kind of your location, your identities, your perspective on the world. And then maybe also just about a bit about your creative life as an author and entrepreneur and also as a parent.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 03:56

Thank you. So ⁓ I am the founder of Sex Positive Families, which has very much been informed by both my professional and my personal life. I'm a parent of three young people. So my oldest is 26, my daughter. So I had her when I was 18. I learned that I was pregnant when I was 17.

I've been parenting my entire adult life. I'll be 45 in just a few months. And then I have a 15-year-old son and an 11-year-old bonus son. So my journey of parenting and parenting in a way that has fostered open, shame-free conversations about topics that I didn't grow up.

having openness around like bodies, sexuality, sexual health, identity, ⁓ consent, all of these things. I've been able to break cycles of shame and taboo through the way that I'm parented. And so that's very much influenced the work. As well as my career, I am a social worker by education and I'm a sex educator. I worked about...

10 years in HIV and STIs, sexually transmitted infection, at the nonprofit and state government level. This was before I created my own work with sex positive families. And so that's also very much informed the work that I get to do. And so now I'm teaching workshops for families with young people and their trusted adults, teaching them about puberty, about media and porn literacy.

and Sex and Reproduction through our Growing Into You work. And I have authored two books along the path, one of them for parents called Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids and the other one that will be coming out next week for young people called Growing Into You. And that's a puberty education guide for 10 to 14 year olds. So receiving your invitation and with the context of your podcast, the intersections of parenting and creativity,

Totally my jam, just been at the heart of my journey. And as we kind of were talking before we hopped on, just this has been a beautiful winding road. ⁓ And so, yeah, I'm just excited to be here to talk with you about these things, ⁓ because they've very much shaped who I am today, which is someone that I could have only dreamed or imagined.

when I think of my younger self. ⁓

Nikko Snyder (: 06:48

Congratulations on your new book that's coming out. ⁓ Super exciting. I would love to talk to you about your journey as an author. Maybe we'll save that for a little bit later. ⁓ And yeah, in terms of your work, I've had the benefit of participating in so far one of your workshops with my child, my 11-year-old ⁓ on sex and reproduction. And yeah, just super that firsthand experience of your work really has informed and inspired my approach to having some of these conversations around sex and sexuality.

⁓ in an age-appropriate and sex-positive way with my kiddos. So yeah, just really, really appreciate your work in the world. And again, just thrilled to have you here. ⁓ You mentioned, so you were talking about, yeah, your winding road and also, you know, that this, approaches to having, this work and having these conversations with your own children is not, ⁓ that's maybe breaking the mold from what you experienced as a young person and what was modeled to you.

I'd love to hear a little bit more about kind of where that road started for you, what your upbringing was like in terms of, yeah, in terms of what was modeled to you, but also kind of who you were. Were you always this creative child? You're this entrepreneur now. Was that something that was part of you as a young person or was this modeled to you? Can you talk about that a bit?

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 08:11

Yeah, I'd love to. ⁓ I'll say that I am in Austin, Texas, in Tancualand, and I was born in Chicago. And my parents, my mom is Puerto Rican and my dad is half Black, half Mexican. So culturally, there have been many influences on both sides, Catholicism, in terms of religion. ⁓

We were not devout as far as when I was raised within it, but like my dad went to Catholic schools and his upbringing. ⁓ so I feel very much that that influenced some of the silence and taboo and some of the maybe more shame-based messaging around ⁓ bodies and sexuality and a lack of openness around these conversations was that particular religious influence.

And so yeah, I up in Texas because we moved from Chicago when I was three to Texas. And we moved into suburban areas. And so often I was either the only or one of very few Black or Brown, you know, young people. So I would say that my that those earlier years were

t was back in, so was born in: 1980

happening when I was in like late middle school and definitely by the time high school. And I think about like HBO, real sex being a show that I would, I would sneak to watch. I had such curiosities as young people do when it came to these things, but I had no outlet or openness at home to talk about these things. So I could tell that there was,

taboo and there was, you know, silence and there were things I wasn't allowed to say or wasn't allowed to think about. But I had these questions and these urges and then there's music and there's media. And I remember getting in trouble one time riding in the car with my dad and I repeated something that I think was a line from a movie that we'd seen because parents back then were not helicoptering the way that we tend to now.

So the things that we watched back then that I don't know if you've ever tried to watch a movie or something that you remembered from your childhood and then you try to watch it now with our kids today and you're like, ⁓ wait, ⁓ wait, hold on, I didn't realize that.

Nikko Snyder (: 11:26

This did not age well.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 11:28

Yeah, there's just so many examples of that. And we love to talk about that in our media and porn literacy workshop and one of our activities. And it's always like a fun, fun slash funny slash conversation. ⁓ But yeah, I repeated a line from a movie and I want to say it had something to do with like a horn dog. And I didn't know what horn dog was. It was said in a funny way. So I just wanted to repeat it because I thought this would get a laugh.

remember my dad, oh, his reaction. His reaction was immediate and Kurt and I, you know, don't you ever say that, you know, and not and it scared me. I but but there was no context given to me after that as to why not. Yeah. And you know, it's like little things like that, that I experienced along the way. And then ultimately, I was still curious. And, and when it came time for me to explore

I was seeking connection and relationships in high school and everything. ultimately didn't really have the tools. I was in Texas and so there wasn't sex education. Any messaging we did get was very shame-based, ⁓ but we didn't have a curriculum being taught to us. So we weren't getting the education. so then when it came time where I was...

curious and experimenting with relationships and then with sex, I didn't have the tools that I could need to make informed choices that could align with my goals and that could protect myself from some things that could be, that I may not have actually wanted or been ready for. So I became pregnant when I was 17.

And this is no way about shaming young parents or teen pregnancy. Not at all. I did experience through that though, and this speaks to where the narratives were in that shame ⁓ when I shared with my parents that I was pregnant.

And this was, I had just graduated high school, because I was 17 when I graduated high school. it was the summer right then. And I supposed to be heading to college in a city that was in another part of Texas. I didn't have any family in that city. was just, I got accepted to that university to study social work. But then I got this news and my father's reaction, he was like, you have to get an abortion. And he specifically said,

you're going to be working at McDonald's thinking you're doing something. And so this was a big failure, you know, in his eyes and I was first born, you know. And so I'd clearly I had failed is the message. And so that's when I said, okay, you're right. You know, I've got to do this. and then my, so my mom,

dropped me off at an abortion clinic ⁓ because of her faith. She was like, I can't go in with you. You go do what you got to do kind of thing, know, dropped me off. And, ⁓ and so I was, I was literally there, you know, laying on the table to, to, you know, get an abortion and they had the suction going, you know, I had, they had

headphones and they were playing something that was supposed to relax me and they'd put the gas so that I would calm. I remember just listening to that, hearing the suction, and then less than a minute after the suction started, it stopped. Then the person that was standing there with me tapped me and said, you need to sit up. It was then that they said, we can't do this procedure. We need you to

you know, did you come here with someone we need to talk to you? And I said, my mom, you know, dropped me off. They said, well, she needs to come back. And that's when they told me that I had what they called a transverse septum. And that's a layer of a membrane that didn't separate in the development of within my vaginal canal. And typically when that happens and

when I say didn't separate during my like fetal development. So I'd had this membrane, but I didn't know. And usually when that happens, you can you find out because when you start menstruating, then the blood has nowhere to go and it starts to cause pain. And then that's what alerts that, oh, something's going on. But I mine had like three little holes, they said. And so that's what allowed for and I had irregular periods at that.

know, early age, which can be common. I was very athletic and I didn't know what a typical period was even before that. then that's how ultimately sperm was able to travel. And so they said, we can't perform this abortion because if we do that and suction that could cause an infection. So we would need you to have this membrane separated, healed, and then you can come back and get this procedure.

And I was like, I mean, again, I was shell shocked because I'm thinking already I'm feeling shell shocked just by way of being there. That wasn't fully like my decision. You know, it was something that being that felt, you know, coerced, you know. And then they're telling me, oh, never mind, we can't do this. And so my mom, her reaction is these are just things that, they just kind of

stick with you as what your memory of the experiences were. And I just never forget, she was like, this baby's meant to be this is, you know, and so then I was like, okay, like because they were, they said, you'd have, I'd have to go through other steps. They even back then were like, or you could, there's a pill that the FDA hasn't approved, but you can get it in Mexico. so, wow. Coming my way.

Nikko Snyder (: 17:57

It was just a lot.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 18:00

that time, right? And again, I was just, I was a new 18 year old at that point. And so then I was like, okay, okay, I guess I, I guess I have to have this baby now. So I be, so that was the part of the winding road of just, you know, ⁓ becoming a young parent in that particular way. in the work that I do now, I've shared this story a few different times and you just,

can see the threads of where the taboo, the shame, the lack of comprehensive sex education, support, and even, again, my parents. It's generational. We now have access to so many resources and so much context that previous generations did not have. And so also holding empathy for

my parents and what they were trying to do and the best that they were trying to do in their parenting journey in the face of all of this. So yeah, so these things, I becoming a parent at a young age, I knew that I wanted to do things differently. I felt called to do things differently for my child.

And so that's really what set apart. was a personal journey and a personal mission that I had to want to be the kind of parent that I'd wish I'd had in many ways. And especially when it came to these kinds of conversations, because I felt ultimately that if I had had information, knowledge, education and support, then I think that

that could have gone differently. And so the really cool thing is that I think parenting is big old experiment for all of us, right? Because listen, we've never been here. We've never been here before. We're all just trying to, And I don't care how many books you have, how many things you watch, all the advice you can take in. It's going to be a completely unique journey every single time. And there's no one way. No, there's no perfect way. There's no right way.

And I have been able to raise my firstborn who's now 26. She's a nurse. So and she works in postpartum care. She's done labor and delivery before. ⁓ just it's been incredible. experimenting with what happens when you do some things different. Can you get a different result? And with my firstborn,

I can say yes. And she's been able to make decisions about her own sexual health, her own path. ⁓ She has been very clear about her career and her journey. She has two degrees, two bachelor's degrees, personal and psychology, second one was her nursing degree. She graduated valedictorian of her nursing school class. Wow. And she's been clear that she...

doesn't want to have children until or pursue, you know, trying to have children until after she achieves these goals. She told me recently that it looks like she's going to apply for a master's program in nursing. She has her own business tutoring nursing students to study for the NCLEX, which is the nursing exam. So she's just out here. Her and her boyfriend, they

Nikko Snyder (: 21:45

She's a go-getter, holy.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 21:49

have a house that's not far from where we live and they have two cats. So I have grandkitties that I love to take care of when they are away because then they call them my daughter and her boyfriend, they call themselves DINCs, which stands for Dual Income No Kids. They're just out here stacking their coins and I love it for them. They just got back from a 13 day, I think, cruise in Japan.

to different parts of Japan and South Korea. I didn't get my passport until last year. So, um, so talk about breaking some cycles, you know, and, um, so anyway, yeah. And then, and then, and then now being a parent of a teenage son and then my bonus son, who's a tween, uh, who I dedicated the book, especially to the both of them, you know, being in these age ranges and, um,

just getting to see also where gender, you know, and I very much feel, you know, there's, many things that are constructed and stereotyped and that are not innate, that are about socialization. And so being able to raise young boys who aren't, you know, rooted in toxic masculinity or misogyny, you know, who know more about menstruation than, and,

not just their bodies, bodies that aren't like theirs, then I knew certainly it took me like into my twenties possibly to, know, and becoming a sex educator before I knew so many of the things that they know and that they have just an awareness and an empathy for. So I just believe that absolutely we, we through parenting can be such a healing journey and, and yes, many expressions. So

I guess, too, part of your question, think, too, was the work that I get to do, that younger version of myself. was, ugh, I wrote a lot of poetry. I wrote plays. I performed in plays for my school, for like a theater company. I ⁓ wrote a newsletter that had a few different editions for my neighborhood that nobody asked for.

And that was in the earlier days of these big old giant computers that we had. And I was learning how to use the word processing function of it and creating these letters.

Nikko Snyder (: 24:24

distribute

this around to your neighbor? I did.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 24:27

I did. It even had a subscription fee. I don't think anyone really paid it, but it was a very low fee. I was doing things like that. I was also teaching. I had a classroom of stuffed animals, but it was very serious. I remember being in elementary school and I would stay after school to help one of the teachers. She would give me stacks of unused worksheets.

I would pass them out to my students in my bedroom and I would fill them out and then I would grade them. I would have a grading book. I even made a transparency projector from a shoebox and a Ziploc bag. My mom worked for 3M who makes the Visa V markers. I would use them and a flashlight and I would project onto my closet, whole lessons. I was an educator. I was teaching.

from a young age. we had the big giant camcorders. My sister and I, would record different things. We would make commercials and do interviews. So it's like there's so many pieces of things that I've gotten to do in this entrepreneurship journey that are just skills that my younger self was using in play and in fun.

and in creativity. And so I feel so grateful for the chance to get to just be fully expressed through my entrepreneurial journey. But I didn't have entrepreneur models, like role models. Both my parents worked in jobs that it's like you work there to retire from there. And we know that the landscape has definitely changed now.

I didn't have the entrepreneurship modeled for me. And so I thought that I was going to just work for, you know, I in nonprofit and then I worked in state government. I thought I was going to work for the state until retirement. But then I being in that setting for that last two years of that 10 year period. And then again, this was after it took me 10 years to get my bachelor's degree. And I did a lot of different jobs just to

because I was parenting, you know, I had to make money.

Nikko Snyder (: 26:54

Great. This is all in the context of being a young parent. Yeah, and I think you told me you had to spend years working to get your degree.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 27:04

Just to get that bachelor's degree, because I was, yeah, I was like, I was work, I was going to school very part time. This was before online school was a thing. And so I like worked for the police department, taking emergency calls. I worked for an assistant for a credit union, a bank. I worked for a law office as an office manager, assisting family law attorneys. Like I did so many things. I worked at Red Lobster.

I did so many things in the time just to get that degree, which I feel so proud because when I graduated, my daughter was nine. And so she literally got to watch me walk that stage. And she went to some classes with me. And I remember driving with her, went to a beautiful, expensive university. was a private university. And I only went there because they were the only program that had a new college program, a program that was...

flexible for working adults. The public university, UT Austin, I could have gone there and gotten a social work degree and it would have been 50 % cheaper. But at that time they were like, we only have classes during the day. So you'll have to take out a lot of loans or work at night. And I was like, but I want to be able to see my child. I don't want to be just constantly, you know, so yeah. So being able to

drive with her, take her to classes. So she got a chance to see higher education and just education being normalized. And I was a first generation college student and now she has two degrees working on her third. So it's just been so cool to see just the generational things there. But yes, my current work is an opportunity for me to connect with that younger version of myself that had so many ideas.

and so many talents and so many skills. And back then it wasn't about as it is when we're kids. It isn't all about until someone makes it about that, whether it's good enough, know, or perfect or the right way. It's just fun. It's just play. It's just something that feels good to us and we do it. And so that's been something I've also tapped into a lot in this path of.

owning my own business that has such creative components to it is having to really remind myself and tap into like, is feeling good in my spirit? When I do this activity, when I work in this medium, does it feel good to me? Separate from what other people are getting out of it or whether capitalism, you know, whether it's making all the money or not.

Because if it doesn't feel good to me, even if I'm good at it, subjectively to other people, it's not sustainable. I'm not gonna like it. And that's what I need to listen to. And that's again, a nod to that younger version of myself.

Nikko Snyder (: 30:12

And I love that. I mean, that really resonates with me. And I love that your interests and your passions from when you were a little kid and just in that play open space that all of that so clearly foreshadowed what you're doing now and as an educator and as a creative person. yeah, so it's really marvelous. I'm curious if you could, like that is a...

starting your own business is no joke, right? And like that risk of, said you were working for state government and I'm assuming these were stable jobs and you were still young parent. so I'm really, curious if you can share a little bit about what the catalyst was for, what led to your courage to bust out onto your own path and in this entrepreneurial way.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 31:07

Yeah, that's a great question. Two years at that point, I'd been at this state job and I was doing macro level social work at that point. I started the career doing micro level working directly with folks living with HIV. then, know, it's like kind of, the natural progression is that then I was in management roles, all of that.

and then transitioned to state government and thought, ⁓ is when I can make bigger scale impact, see things on a bigger scale. And it really didn't take long to kind of see through the illusion. And it just didn't resonate again. It just didn't resonate and it didn't take long to see that. And there was a lot of bureaucracy and limits and less innovative

practices that were going on. And again, I'm in Texas, so context as well. And I was in a cubicle. And listen, if all of this sounds amazing to others, follow your North Star. With me, my spirit felt caged. I think back to just different things I even tried to do in those settings. I ended up

I was a consultant and I had certain areas of the state that I, certain ⁓ health departments across the state that were a part of my territories that I was providing consultants, consultant services for. And I created a newsletter to send out to them that, you know, shared resources and tips and all this stuff relative to the work that nobody asked for, but they loved it. They loved it. And so there, I remember.

There was a moment where I was like, gosh, I really love doing this. I wish I could just create a newsletter. And here I have now, with Sex Positive Families has just under 20,000 subscribers on our news. So every month I get to send out, for the last eight years, I've gotten to create, curate, and send out to a growing audience of folks who absolutely value what I share.

I get to create a newsletter. Again, that younger version of myself. Then even as an adult, I wanted to... What led to the pivot was these pieces that were eating away at me and that I knew just weren't aligned. Then I also was experiencing relational stuff, what I would name as ⁓ racist acts toward

me and I wasn't the first person that experienced that on this particular team that I was a part of. ⁓ I actually got the job on that team I learned later because that boss, the previous person who quit, who was a black woman who got pushed out because of another employee and their behavior, but that employee wasn't being held accountable and that employee wasn't black.

And so I was like, replaced as if I was going to fare any better in that kind of dynamic. So I absolutely did everything that I felt I could to report what was going on. And, but it was faced with what is very common in systems. And ⁓ I was not the one protected in that situation. Neither was my predecessor. And so.

I had to get out of there. was on the phone. It got to a point where pretty much almost every lunch break or break that I was taking, I was on the phone with EAP, which is employee assistance program, which is like your counseling services that some benefits give you access to because I was struggling. it was such a, at that point I'd been 10 years into being a social worker. And so in a way I was like,

Well, what else am I going to do if this is what I went to school for and this is what my dream has been? This has been what everything I've been doing has been leading up to. If I can't handle this or if this isn't going to work, then what else am I supposed to do? So there were a lot of those thoughts. I do remember this moment where there was another coworker who we would ⁓ sometimes take longer on breaks.

And we would wander off the campus to, there was a Starbucks across the street and we would go into the Starbucks for a little longer than we were supposed to. And I remember seeing people there that looked like, you know, they had their laptops and they just look like, and they were casually dressed and it just looked like, you know, oh, they're working like, oh my gosh. And I remember just having that really conscious thought of like, I wish I had a job. I wish I could do something.

create something that could allow me the flexibility to just come to a coffee shop and work and not be under the restraints of a system that tells me when I can do this and when I can't do that and how long and all of that. Then here I've been for the last eight years. can't tell you how many coffee shops, how many. Both of my books.

many of them were written in coffee shops because when you're a parent, there's a lot going on in your own home, right? Yeah. And then laundry's off staring at you constantly. And that a book needed to get written. so coffee shops made it so that the only thing I could do there was what I was there to do. So it was the best setting for me to write books. And I've created workshops there. ⁓

Again, dreaming has been a thread. And I dreamed so much when I was that younger version of myself. I was constantly dreaming. And then there's, there's a period there where, I don't know if it's accurate to say an abandonment of self in that sense. I don't know, totally. But we feel like we have to, the pressure is there to have to conform to survive in these systems. And

I did that. tried that. Yeah. Yeah. So getting to that point of realizing that I need to get out of here. This isn't going to work for me anymore. I thankfully married to my husband, uh, very supportive. And I was like, I got to get out of here because I'm not going to be well. There's the other element of just our well, mental health, physical health, just overall wellness was being affected, impacted.

So I took that leap and I quit. quit. And I did have a small bit of retirement, you know, and I cashed it out. And there was, so there was a bit of that small seed there, but it honestly wasn't, but a week after quitting, I went to a happy hour with some of those old coworkers. And there was a moment where one of the coworkers asked me, so what do you, what do you want to do now?

And I said, you know, I'd really like to, I really like talking about sex in the sense of helping parents because I know how challenging that conversation can be and can feel and can seem because of how it has been framed in our society and so many, and trauma experiences and everything. But I've been able to do that.

differently in my own family and I found success with that. And I said, I was saying like, I would love to help other parents with this conversation. And I literally was like, I wonder if that's a job. And it was the next day that I took to Google and I started Googling to figure out, this a job? Can you know? And I found a couple of examples, people who are now

colleagues of mine in this space, of proof that this can be a job. I can do sex education specific to supporting parents and families. And that is where sex positive families began. But it was not just a week later, because truly when I relieved myself mentally, physically, emotionally from that tie, that relationship that was not healthy,

of trying to fit in that box. When I honored my authentic truth and authentic self, everything started to become clearer. And truly, as I look back at the last eight years, it has been a testament to that time and time again. The more that I am plugged in and tuned in and listening and honoring my authentic truth,

everything falls in place and it is on that path of that creative honoring the dream work, the creative work.

Nikko Snyder (: 41:02

Yeah, when we talked before, you said something about the feeling of like flowing, like water kind of thing. think I'm just, yeah, it's just that came back to me because I just love that. You you release yourself from that, pressure to conform. You just, you put it so beautifully, like that pressure to conform is real, you know, to conform to the capitalist structures, the parenting expectations that, I mean, there's just so much and that pressure is so heavy and so real and, and

I love hearing your story about releasing that pressure for yourself and then just like, days later, right? That flow.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 41:42

It happens just like that. And this is where I feel the, cause I've talked to so many people along this path because I'm very public with the work that I do thanks to social media. there have been along the way, many people who've reached out because they're seeking their own sense of freedom and liberation in their life. And it's very hard to see when we are still in fear.

when we're still allowing fear to really imprison us. Because yeah, otherwise you're hearing people tell these stories and you're like, that sounds great and cute and fun for them and magical for them. But I got to pay bills or I got to, know, my kids need this that we get, you know, to the, to the, to the very real and practical things. And I'm, and yeah, I would have been the same.

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure that other people probably, I saw examples and other people told me their versions of stories of their own liberation and honoring and alignment. But I was very just, you know, in what I felt like I had to do. And it is, it can be hard to really explain if a person isn't really ready, you know, and everyone has their own journey with it. And so

In social work, there's the stages of change. And if you're still in the pre-contemplative stage of change, then yeah. You're going to just hear all these things and they're going to move through because you're going to keep doing the same things, the same patterns, even if they're not working, but they're familiar, they're comfortable, change is very hard, which I get to talk about a lot when it comes to puberty. But it is part of an evolutionary process that

Nikko Snyder (: 43:33

Yup.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 43:39

you know, our own personal journeys. And sometimes, yeah, it's when the rock bottoms happen, when something just happens that is so uncomfortable, disruptive, unacceptable, harming, and you hope that you get the chance to evolve through that to another side. Sometimes people don't get that chance for different reasons, right? So I did have that.

combination of events that just felt like too much for me to bear. So I'm so grateful that I listened to that and I believed, think, you know, actually let me say this out loud. So I think there also came a point where I believed that I had more value, more worthiness than what was happening.

in my in that existence, I had to believe that I was worth more. And I and I did ultimately, so I'm really proud of that version of myself that came to the conclusion at a point that I'm worth more than this. I can do more than this. I meant to do more than this. I just know it in my spirit and listening to that. So I think that.

getting to the point where you decide not to abandon yourself anymore. And you decide that you're going to trust yourself and what yourself is telling you about your path. And absolutely, it causes discomfort, not just for you, but it also can cause discomfort for others. If it's about leaving a job, sure, that'll be uncomfortable to others. When it comes to these systems,

Trust me, they won't be uncomfortable for long. They'll find a replacement. So don't, please, please don't, please don't prioritize the systems, feelings, and the people who are enabling those systems. But I get it, right? If we're in partner situations, maybe you're in a situation where the partner is, it's not seeming very supportive or supportive in the way that's feeling like it's allowing you to take brave leaps.

And then yes, there's bills, there's bills, there's bills, there's always be bills in this. But guess what? There's also a trust in self there that you can have that you're a badass, resourceful, intelligent person. And that you didn't get here where you're at now out of just, you know, luck. There was a lot of, it was a lot of.

hard work, intelligence, commitment, resilience, you know, that got you there. You're going to use those same capabilities even when the landscape changes. And if you're able to be the boss of that shifting landscape, the empowerment that you feel that fuels you.

in such a very different way than when you were having to do it because someone else or something else was telling you to. I'm telling you, it really fuels you in a much life-giving way that honors your creativity and inspires your creativity. And then you're generating from that place.

And yes, it's things that are hard to imagine now if you're not already there. It's hard to imagine. It's hard to see your fullest self in that. But why not give it a chance? We've got this one life. And if you don't do it, if I don't do it for myself, no one's gonna do it for me. No one's gonna do it for me because they're benefiting from me playing small.

Nikko Snyder (: 47:36

Yes.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 47:49

They're benefiting from me thinking that this is all that there is. So once you realize that, wait a second, that's not, that's false. The sky is truly the limit and you get to define what that sky looks like and feels like. And once you start, I'm telling you, you won't look back because the feelings that you'll get in the way that it lights your spirit up,

Nikko Snyder (: 47:52

Yeah.

Yeah.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 48:17

Why would you live any other way once you experience it is what happens.

Nikko Snyder (: 48:23

I'm so sorry that you had to experience what sounds like a really difficult time and unfairness and, you know, systemic unfairness. I'm sorry for that. And I'm so happy for you and for myself and for everybody else who gets to benefit from your work that you came through that, that you are, you know, living your best life. And I really am.

And yeah, and just hearing that story, I mean, I feel like you're just speaking straight into my, you know, into my spirit. So thank you. ⁓ And also, you know, so many others I know are just need this encouragement as well. So thank you for sharing that.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 49:09

Thank you. For all my listeners that are in the United States right now, okay? Well, and it's impacting the world. What's going on politically? And it's like, this is the time, if none other, for us to be creative and for us to lean into our creative geniuses, our North stars. They don't want that. They don't want that. They benefit from the versions of us who are in fear, who are suspended from action.

who don't see our greatness and our fullest selves, they benefit from that. So, your personality loves the F you, like the shove it to them kind of, if you like that, and I'm a disrupter, if you're a disrupter, this is the time to disrupt. again, doesn't all look like going to the marches and...

You know, like there's many different ways to disrupt and something, and I do believe it has to start at home. It has to start, you know, within yourself. And so if there's any part of you that feels like you're not living in alignment with your truth, whatever that truth or truths are, this is a time. This is a time.

Nikko Snyder (: 50:28

I want to pause for just a moment to thank you for listening. Parenting Creative is my labor of love. If what we're exploring resonates with you, I hope you'll take a few moments to support the podcast and get involved in the parenting creative community. The best ways to do that? Talk us up to your friends and leave us a five-star review with a few kind words. And if you want more Parenting Creative in your life, including a bonus episode with more of my conversation with Melissa, sign up for our free email newsletter to get sneak peeks and guest announcements.

behind the scenes stories and deeper reflections on each episode. You can find links to all of this in our show notes. Now back to my conversation with Melissa. Something that you chose to share on social media. So I've been following this a little bit. There's a show called Adolescents for folks that haven't seen it. It's this mini series about a 13 year old boy who is basically arrested for murdering a female classmate. That premise. So for me, that premise.

And the possibility of, as a parent who's raising boys, the possibility that young boys can be lost into this world of hate, that really speaks to kind of basically one of my biggest fears as a parent. And so I would love it if you're willing to talk a little bit about that choice to make that a point of connection with your child to watch that together. Basically, you chose to watch that show together and experience that together.

Can you share a little bit about that?

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 51:55

Yeah, absolutely. So my son and I, my 15 year old, we love watching shows. We also have listened to audiobooks together that blend some fiction elements. It becomes great opportunities to... So the spotlight's not on him and what he's doing or not doing or whatever in his world.

which is where it can create some disconnect or distance sometimes if they feel judgment or, you it's another lecture or whatever. But instead we get to experience and potentially have our own like commentary and reactions to characters, you know, and what's going on in someone else's life, right, around these themes. So because we've already for years created that kind of dynamic of watching

and consuming media in this kind of way together, it was like natural. It's almost like we're always looking, okay, what's the next show that we can watch together? like, you know, waiting for something that seems interesting to watch together. And so when I started, I started hearing about this adolescence and so was like, oh, this could be, this could be another one. This could be what we've been looking, we've been looking for what the next one is. So I told him, hey, I heard about the show, adolescence, you know, would you like to watch it together?

So for him, was like, sure, you know, because it's just a way that we've been connecting. And, ⁓ and wow, it's four parts. so four hours in length, ⁓ not something that we, I mean, sure you can binge nowadays, right? You can Netflix binge it, but it was very intense. we watched two.

And truly it was, we finished the first one and because of how well it was done, because of the way that, you know, you just, get invested. My son was like, okay, yeah, let's, let's watch the second one. know, ⁓ he didn't want it to stop. He didn't feel like, ⁓ we're watching this because we have to, or something like that, nothing like that. And so we watched the second one and then we were like, okay, let's pause here for today and we'll come back to it. And we actually.

The next day we had something going on in the evening so we didn't and so it was the day after that that we finished the last two. So it is the way it's done. It's all in one shot. Each of the episodes is one shot, which, and I talk about this in the post, it's so well done in capturing the emotion of the different characters in the face of this.

instant incident and everything that's come with it. And it's very true to life in that sense, because when we're living life, there's not like a cut scene. You know, doesn't like go to commercial, you know, ⁓ or cut to some other time in the future, or someone else you're having to sit with. And that's the heaviness sometimes many times of like the human experience and what

can feel hard when there's trauma is because there's not like a cut scene or an off button. Yeah. You know, and it and they were able to capture and in reflection is where I feel this ⁓ that I realized that, they were able to capture what that feels like the before, during and after of a moment across people. So young people.

parents, helping professionals, have detectives, know, the police folks, had educators, teachers, so just community. So there were many layers of how this show was able to depict so thoughtfully, so with such depth, the impact of all of this. so I just, I so, we had such a positive experience.

The character's 13, the main character. So my child being 15, it wasn't too much. And they aren't, in this series, aren't sensationalizing or there's nothing about it that I felt was being overdone for entertainment purposes. There's no hypersexualization or anything that felt like it.

It's just being done for shock value, not at all, or inappropriately being done. if you have a young person who things really weigh heavy on them, then I do recommend that if a parent has any doubts that they watch it first themselves as a parent or with another parent so that

You can experience it and kind of process it. ⁓ But with us doing it in real time, also it's not that pressure to have to say all the right things or know what to say. You really it's just being present, being willing to experience something raw for the first time with your young person. There can be a lot of power and connection in that.

we would pause it. found ourselves, especially after that first episode and once we really got into it and the third episode for sure, oh my gosh, we were pausing and we would just look at each other and be like, okay, what are your thoughts? Because of what was just said or what just happened and everything, right? And then definitely after, mean, the very, the gut wrenching last scenes of it. And when I say that out loud, the assumption is, oh,

Was it because someone died or something like that? This was about human emotion. And it's just so well done. So highly recommend. I do think that, wow, what if every adult, whether you are parenting or not, what if every adult watched this in this point in time? I do think it would absolutely have an impact. And I think I've seen that there are some districts.

Sounds like not in the US, districts who are incorporating this show now into some curriculum. it's that level. It's that level.

Nikko Snyder (: 58:58

Yeah, thank you. When we chatted about this a little bit before, and the last time we talked, and I was just sharing my fears, because sometimes the fears that we hold or that I hold as a parent just almost can feel paralyzing. And there was something that you said about basically the, in the context of you watching this with your child, that the antidote to the fears is to stay connected. And I just, think that really stuck with me.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 58:58

recommend.

Nikko Snyder (: 59:28

And I think that that's the basis of all of your work, I would posit. It's just that connection and that ⁓ willingness and effort to create those points of connection, not just with our young people, but in our communities. And I think just in this world of deep division and my gosh, yes, yes.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 59:51

Yeah. It absolutely starts with that. It's like, how can we stay in the habit, either start the habit if we feel like we veered off and again, have empathy and compassion for our own selves that, especially for adults, and we've navigated what we've navigated to get to this point in our adulthood. It's like, gosh, we really have been resilient. We've been strong. ⁓

so much compassion for that version of ourselves that has just been trying to survive and just been trying to figure it out. And we deserve that grace and that love. And it's like when we can be in the habit of showing that to ourselves as frequently, as daily as we can, we can be at such greater capacity to then extend that. And then if extending it, the closest next proximity is our kids many times if we're parenting, right?

So this is all an opportunity for that loving connection and being those examples, ultimately, because our kids are always watching, which feels like so much pressure. So being in the practice of being in loving relationship with ourselves, and that also involves forgiveness continually as we're being human.

making mistakes in all kinds of ways, but we're learning and we're growing. And if we can model all of this for our young people, the imperfection, we can model that for our young people, the repair. This is all part of it because as, when you watch the show, adolescence, you will see that it's that loss of connection. And it's that very last episode where these parents are re you're watching two parents think about how did we get here?

And they do that so effectively. So I think absolutely for parents that may be feeling the fears around, you know, the justified fears of like, well, I don't want my kid to become dot dot dot. And I'm afraid I don't know if I'm doing good enough, dot dot dot. This show does such a wonderful job of expressing, articulating, and you get to observe parents, young, like a whole community in different levels of

of both fear and trying to navigate their way through. So you get to watch other people doing this and it will help you see what's possible. And so then another post that I had after a couple weeks later was just my, and it came to me, just my truth around what has changed in our family since watching this show.

And it is all really about connection. I even talk about at the end of that, third reason had to do with fear, my fears. And I talk about how I'm actually not afraid. I'm not afraid of my child and accessing porn or so much around like drug use or I'm afraid of mental health related things, right?

And like if my child didn't see their own worthiness, their own value to the point where they didn't want to be here anymore. Those kinds of things I'm afraid of more so than these other things, which are often symptoms of the this and what can lead to that. And you see this articulated in the show, adolescence is this disconnection. And when we're disconnecting and

Nikko Snyder (: 1:03:21

Yeah.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:03:42

So then the epiphany is I can influence, I can absolutely control how I show up in relationship with my child and in our family dynamic. And so that lowers fear because I have action, I have purpose, I have clarity around what I can do. And I can keep playing with that, those different actions of doing that connection.

trying that out on it every day. What does that look like? What does that feel like? And the more you just keep showing up for that, before you know it, you have a connected relationship with your young person throughout years. And that's, I believe, like you said, the antidote.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:04:31

Yeah, thank you for that.

Hmm.

Okay, so you are an author. You have a book published, another book that's coming out, I think you said in like a week, in just a few days. ⁓ So I'd love to hear a little bit about ⁓ that journey of becoming an author. You talked a little bit about, ⁓ the context of becoming an entrepreneur, that part of it was like, you didn't want to have to have somebody else tell you what you could and couldn't say, or you you wanted to have

some more freedom, I think, to innovate, to follow your North Star. And so your first book, I understand you chose for it to be self-published and curious about that journey. So that process of self-publishing a book and now this new book that's coming out is, think, through a publisher. And so I'd love for you, if you could just speak a little bit about that journey of how what being an author has been about for you and that experience. And then, yeah, I would just love for our listeners to know about.

about your books and congratulations on this new one that's coming out.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:05:44

Thank you. Yes. So I didn't know that I was going to be a published author. Some people, that is a dream and they're like, and they're doing things purposely on that path. ⁓ I was not that way with this. I was truly just creating resources within sex positive families and creating them in different mediums, knowing that people learn in different ways and consume in different ways. done pot, I've created a

season of a podcast for the work. I ⁓ wrote lots of articles for our website. I've created a lot of social media content and captions and different forms of posts. So I've been a writer. I've been writing. I just definitely didn't see it as a book. Initially, that wasn't a goal. then it truly was, it started as ⁓ from the business side of things. was getting

some coaching to try to figure out how do you have a say, how do you, what do we need to do to have a business? I don't even know. So I was getting, I was in different groups, know, Facebook groups related to entrepreneurship and everything. was, it was, it was rarely anything specific to sex that, you know, I'm always the anomaly, like, Oh, sex education. Oh, okay. And you see whether that leads to people coming closer to you or further away from you or often further away. So, uh, so I was in these generic entrepreneurial groups.

And they would talk about creating downloadable things, right? And that, then you can sell the downloadable thing. And I'm just like, okay. I had at that point created so many one-pager or a couple of pager freebies for my website. so I had, I worked with a coach for a short period of time and they were like, you know could just put these together as one kind of ebook kind of thing. And I was like, huh.

And I looked at it from that lens and I was like, yeah, well, these actually do kind of cover and I can create some things that kind of fill in. So that's kind of where my first book kind of started was it started as like a digital download that was a compilation of many things that I had created already up to that point that were on the theme. And I was selling that on my website for I think like $10 or $12 or something. And, you know, over that over, I don't know, first couple of years, I

sold like over a thousand of those. So it showed that there was a demand and that people were really valuing that. And so then someone was like, have you ever thought about writing a book, like putting this in a book because that would be so helpful because then it's all the knowledge in one place. And I was like, well, okay, sure. And so then that's where I just, I put it together in a book format.

And thanks to the modern world of self-publishing and the fact that, you through platforms like KDP Publishing, which is Kindle Direct Publishing through Amazon ⁓ or, you know, IngramSpark, there are lots of different self-publishing platforms. And because of YouTube University, I was able to learn and Google, I learned how to publish my own book. And like you said, I

I was very motivated by the fact that I didn't want someone else telling me. I also, you know, through traditional publishing, many times people are writing proposals, you know, they're pitching, you know, trying to get someone else to think that their book is worthy enough. And you can already tell that I don't like to wait for someone else to tell me whether they think I'm worthy enough. So all the reason for self-publishing. And you also can.

get higher profits through self-publishing because the royalties are way higher on self-publishing platforms than they are through contracts and traditional publishing. The publishing company makes the money. book, when you're traditionally publishing often, and I'm also speaking from a non-fiction standpoint, I can't speak from fiction world.

Often the book is the medium really by which you're getting your message out, which can lead to other revenue generating opportunities. This is where people get like public speaking, getting paid for that, you know, or consulting type stuff. So anyway, for me with the self publishing, it truly was because this was a medium that I could share the education with more families. So yeah, I self published through Kindle Direct Publishing and through Ingram Spark.

And then that, that was my first book for parents. That book to date has sold over 17,000 copies worldwide. So that's the other cool thing is it allows for the work to be out there. Now I will disclaim that and say, because I have a social media following and platform, is what has really, that's been the marketing. That's what's really allowed for the people to know that the book exists. Because you know, there are millions of books on

Amazon. People are creating and publishing self publishing books every day, every probably every minute. A new book is put out there. typically, books will sell on average potentially less than 200 copies in their whole lifetime. That's when you Google it, it says something like that. So the marketing part is what traditional publishing can offer many times if you don't have a platform already.

And also, you can publish a book just because you want to publish a book. It doesn't have to be because you're trying to make money from it or because you are trying to be famous or you want a lot of people to read it. Sometimes it's just, I want to put this out in the world in this medium and you can do that now through self publishing. So yeah, I had a great experience self publishing. It actually also led to a couple years later because of how well my book did.

a small publisher reached out and offered me a contract to beef up that first version of the book and republish it in the traditional publishing sense. I almost accepted that offer, but what ultimately held me back was I was like, I like the book the way that it is. I don't think that it needs to be anything to do to be anything more. ⁓ Obviously many people also are

Nikko Snyder (: 1:12:27

Yeah.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:12:31

benefiting from it. that was an interesting moment of just like, wait a second, right? So but then with the traditionally published book, I through social media, I had the editor who's now my editor for this second book, reached out via DM and said, you know, have you ever thought about writing a book that's based on your puberty education that's for young people? And I was like,

And I kind of had, I'd kind of, you again, in the dreaming and the thinking, the creativity, was like, hmm, what if I created? But again, I was probably, I was still thinking on the self-publishing route because of that, like sense of control that I could have and autonomy. so then I said, sure, let's talk about it. And we talked and it felt aligned. And that's, and that's now been like two years ago now that, cause the thing about traditional publishing, it takes a long time.

With self-publishing, did not take me long to write and edit and get that book out into the world. It really did not. But when you have so many people involved and a system and a way that they do things, which has created a beautiful, ⁓ beautiful book, I'm so proud of this book. I'm so grateful for what I experienced. I likely won't earn as much money.

me directly from this book, even if it, because even if it sells as much, my royalties are low compared to, you know, so if someone's thinking of writing a book, it's, there's options and it's really about like, what are you looking to get out of the experience? What feels most important to you? And what are you, what are you willing to do, you know, to get, because with the second book, I didn't have to have an agent. I didn't have to.

pitch, I didn't have to do all the... They did have me write a book proposal after our discussion because that's part of the process, but again, it started by them reaching out to me. They reached out to me because they saw that I had the following and of course that's going to be appealing to them because it means, the sales are probably going to happen and they're not going to have to do as much of the work.

because I already have an audience that's engaged and that likely will see value in this book and you don't have to convince people. ⁓ So anyway, typically there's an advance that happens with awareness when you self-publish. There's no advance, right? Right. ⁓ But you have to, and if you're still considered a first-time author, because even though you self-published, it's not.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:15:09

Yeah.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:15:18

recognized in the same way in the traditional publishing world so you're considered first-time author so your advance is typically not going to be as high and then you have to earn the sales on that advance first before you'll start actually earning royalties. yeah, there are a lot of those pieces to it and I do love any opportunity to get to talk about it because one thing that I don't like about

Nikko Snyder (: 1:15:35

Okay, wow.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:15:47

these things is that it can seem inaccessible and like it's only for certain people and all of this. so I love if there's a chance for me to be a voice or a light or, you know, like just break down those taboos because I love to do that and to basically say, look, this is, this is, this is what it can be like for real. And there's no secrets. There's no hiding.

Because I think if people have a message, if they're feeling creatively called to this medium, then they should be able to have, feel like they can create in this medium without barriers.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:16:33

Yeah, thanks for that window into the kind of inner workings and your experience of both pieces. It's really interesting.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:16:42

Yeah, absolutely. In terms of my books, my first book is Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids, a Guide to Raising Sexually Healthy, Informed, Empowered Young People. This takes parents, caring adults through every age and stage, conversation starters across 12 different sexual health topics. So it really breaks down what does it mean to raise young people with these conversations and how do you do it at every stage ⁓ so that you recognize that it isn't just something that

starts at puberty or when they're teenagers, it actually starts much earlier. then growing into you an inclusive shame busting and get real guide to your changing body and mind. And this is for 10 to 14 year olds and trusted adults absolutely will benefit from this and beautifully beautifully illustrated by Brianna Gilmartin. again, just having a team

Nikko Snyder (: 1:17:17

Absolutely.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:17:42

of people behind this one ⁓ has been such an incredible process. And I'm excited for this resource to get out there to young people and to families. yeah, together, they're quite... I find it very important having engaging books. I don't like books that come across very academic or they're like very long and because I love audio books, which...

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:18:12

My second book is also available, an audiobook and an ebook. First book is available in ebook as well. So just having different formats so that the learning and the education can land for different learning styles.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:18:15

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. well, congratulations. It looks, they both look amazing. The new one is gorgeous, hot off the presses. Thank you. It's wonderful. Yeah. I just want to thank you again, Melissa, for this time that you've taken to share your journey through just so many aspects of your creative life and your parenting journey.

and just your personal journey. It's been really, really lovely to get a chance to talk to you and really just inspiring to hear your story. So thank you again for joining me.

Melissa Pintor Carnagey (: 1:19:05

Thank you so much. Thank you for making this space available for these conversations and making it safe to talk about these topics. And I really appreciate this.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:19:16

Thank you, Melissa.

Nikko Snyder (: 1:19:44

want to give another huge shout out to Melissa Pintor Carnagey for sharing their journey, wisdom and generous spirit. I also want to thank you for listening. If you too are working hard to nurture your creative spirit while parenting or caregiving, I see you in all the glorious struggle and I'm glad you're here. And if you want more parenting creative in your life, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode, engage with us on social media, or better yet, skip the billionaires and subscribe to our email newsletter.

Tips are also always welcome and can be sent via parentingcreative.com slash support or more directly by a simple e-transfer to info at parentingcreative.com. You can find out more about all of that at parentingcreative.com and in our show notes. Before signing off, I also want to thank Natural Sympathies for the use of their song, Hello, as the parenting creative theme song and my partner in life, parenting and podcasting, Jeremy Sauer, for his audio wizardry to make this podcast sound so good. Parenting creative is created and recorded

with gratitude for the keepers of the land on the unceded and traditional territory of the Sinixt in the Slocan Valley. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you soon.