Navigating Single Parenting on the Spectrum with Melissa Boulianne

Nikko Snyder (: 00:07

I'm Nikko Snyder and this is Parenting Creative, a podcast that explores the places where creative life and parenting collide and all the magic and mess that ensues. In our inaugural season, we're delving into the creative lives of parents making art that ranges from theater and music to poetry, journalism and craft. Our goal is to build community and connection for those living deep in the struggles of caring for others while at the same time prioritizing their own creative lives. If you'd like to hear more conversations about making art while parenting,

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Today on the podcast, I'm talking to poet, songwriter, teacher, and single parent of two, Melissa Boulianne Melissa shares a lot of really beautiful and vulnerable poetry on social media that explores her journey with single parenting and parenting a child on the autism spectrum. In our conversation, we talk about the transition to single parenting, autism spectrum disorder, normalizing neurodiversity, living and writing with constant interruptions, using screen time to stay sane, learning to relent.

confidence or lack thereof when writing saves your life and growing in ways you never imagined growing. I'll be honest, this was a tough interview. We had a bunch of technical problems and even though we chose a time to record when we thought kids would be asleep, there were still multiple kid interruptions that threw both of us off our game. But when I listened back, I realized that for all its lumps and bumps, the conversation was in many ways a

perfect example of exactly what Melissa describes about how parenting, with all its demands and interruptions, can leave a person feeling completely lost. And since constant interruptions really are a part and parcel of making art while parenting, I figured I'd leave a couple of those in for you to hear. Here's my conversation with poet, songwriter, teacher, and parent, Melissa Bullion.

Welcome Melissa to Parenting Creative. Thanks for joining me.

Melissa Boulianne (: 02:16

Thanks for having me.

Nikko Snyder (: 02:17

It's really early, we're on winter break, so we found a moment, but our kids are at home, so who knows what will happen. I think your kids are at home, my kids are here.

Melissa Boulianne (: 02:29

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. But hopefully they've been sleeping pretty late over the winter break, which is why I suggested doing it earlier. So hopefully it works.

Nikko Snyder (: 02:39

We'll see what happens. Awesome. Okay, well, I would love to welcome you again. Thank you for finding the time for this conversation. Maybe we could start by just, I would invite you to introduce yourself and your art and a little bit about your life.

Melissa Boulianne (: 02:58

Okay, my name is Melissa Boullianne and I am a mom of two wonderful girls and we live on the unceded territory of the Secwépemc and the Nlaka'pamux First Peoples. We've been here for about a year and a half, just under a year and a half. We've moved around quite a lot in our lives and I think that that has really informed a lot of what I do and what I do is what I teach.

as my job, but I'm also a poet in my spare time, which I think is why I'm here today. As far as I've been told.

Nikko Snyder (: 03:36

Yeah, we know each other a little bit. Our kids, we used to live in the same place and your youngest and my oldest were in the same class. so that's our, I guess, the beginning of our connection. then, ⁓ yeah, just I see you ⁓ as an artist, your poetry is, you share it on social media. So I still get to experience your art and your poetry, even though we don't live close anymore.

But yeah, I think that that is why I thought of you for this conversation is that I know that you are a parent and a single parent, which I'm hoping to maybe hear about that experience. A parent of a child on the autism spectrum. I'd love to, if you're comfortable talking about that, would love to kind of explore that. But that also you're, you are this beautiful poet and I see your parenting journey.

fairly front and center in some of your work. So I think that that's what inspired me to invite you to talk about that. I think it was actually you in the last time we talked about the concept of this podcast, but this idea of where parenting and art collide, but then I think you used the term explode, like where that explosion happens and what comes from that intersection or collision.

Yeah, that's just to give, guess, just to say a little bit more of why I'm really happy that you're here. But yeah, so I don't know, we could start at any one of those directions, but maybe talk a little bit more about your poetry and is this something you've done throughout your life? Are you a writer? that something you've always done, someone you've always been?

Melissa Boulianne (: 05:27

Yeah, so yes, I'll say I've never, you know, I've never been a professional poet. I've never really been a published poet. ⁓ I've had, mean, I shouldn't say that anymore. I've had a few pieces published, but you know, nothing is, you know, like no volume of my poetry or something like that. Poets like I've never put out a collection, which is, which is a goal, but it's a, it's a process to get there. As far as going back, I, I've always written since

five, six years old, I kind of started keeping little journals and diaries. And, you know, obviously back then it was mostly just drawings, but a few words in. And then when I was 11 or 12, started writing a lot. And I still have quite a few of my journals, mostly from my twenties, but even I've got one back as far as about 12 years old that's got, you know, a lot of just writing, but also poetry in it as well that I would start to write.

Back then it was really a lot more formalized, I would say. Like I'd use, you know, forms I had learned in school and had, you know, make sure I have a rhyming scheme and that kind of stuff. And then it's evolved over the years to be a lot more free flowing and more of the spoken word sort of style of poetry, which is what I tend towards now. And yeah, I mean, it's come and gone in my life as something I do.

always it's, you know, in times of sort of tribulation and hardship, it comes back as a way that I process everything and a way that I find sanity and find, you know, the threads of goodness and all the crap. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? And so, you know, especially in the last, well, two and two and a half years, that's, you know, two and a half years ago is about when my

my ex left and so it really, you know, set me on this wave of just writing a lot. And I think I've got about 15 journals for the last two and a half years alone. Yeah, and it's been really liberating to start sharing it because it's really only in the last two and a half years that I've actually put myself out there as a poet and started saying like, hey, I want to share this. And I feel like there's

things in here that other people can understand and ⁓ glean from and enjoy and learn something about themselves or whatever it is that the reasons that we share our art. But mainly, I think it's been just my own healing that's brought it about.

Nikko Snyder (: 08:12

So really, I didn't realize that actually that, you know, it's so new for you to be sharing your poetry in the world. So this was really something that was your kind of personal journaling, processing.

Melissa Boulianne (: 08:26

Yeah, mostly. I had a very brief stint in my 20s when I started going to some coffee house poetry readings and read a few pieces. But yeah, really this is kind of the most I've ever shared and put it out there for sure.

Nikko Snyder (: 08:46

And are you, I did not actually realize that you're also a singer.

Melissa Boulianne (: 08:50

Yes. This is kind of the same as poetry. I've always written music along with it. Music is a really big part of my upbringing and again, sort of like poetry that I've come back to it again and again through life. My house is full of music instruments that don't always get played anymore, but they're all still there ready for when I need them and the kids are ready for them. And yeah, no, I did a lot of music growing up. was a huge part of, yeah, where all the...

creativity stemmed from, guess.

Nikko Snyder (: 09:22

You referenced the breakup of your relationship with your ex-partner. I would be interested to hear about that transition from co-parenting to single parenting. I grew up mostly by my single mom and have an appreciation for what that is from the child side. You talk about it in your poetry. I see that journey in your writing.

Melissa Boulianne (: 09:35

Mm-hmm

Nikko Snyder (: 09:50

I'm wondering if you would be willing to talk about what that transition's been like for you.

Melissa Boulianne (: 09:56

You know, it's not a hard subject anymore for me to talk about. I would say my transition was a little more unique than some. Well, hold on, I've got a child coming in just a moment.

Nikko Snyder (: 10:12

Just a quick note, this was one of our interruptions that it took us a couple minutes.

Melissa Boulianne (: 10:15

to regroup from.

My transition into single parenthood was, I think, very different than many because it was, one, it was really abrupt, ⁓ and two, it was complete in that my ex-partner chose to move across the country. And so, it wasn't something that was a decision that we talked about and made together in that.

sort of sense in terms of the abruptness of it. And it also was just really like, you know, went straight from co-parenting to complete solo parenting. Not, you know, like many will have the weekends or every second weekend off or, you know, have the partner, the ex-partner there to, you know, pick up kids from school if needed or be able to work to.

together in some extent, even if there's animosity between partners, you know, often they'll still be there. But I went straight into just being their only person, which was, you know, incredibly hard on them and incredibly hard and still is on myself. I think in a lot of ways poetry saved my life through that, because if I didn't have something to vent to and some way of processing how incredibly difficult that was and how angry I was,

I might not have made it through. Yeah. In a lot of ways, I had to turn to writing. I didn't really have anything else because, you know, it's not something other people could understand. It's not something I can understand. And so the only thing I could do was just write about it. And that kept me sane. And from being really, really, really angry too, it was a way to process that anger that wasn't going to be directed at someone. Really, it's to say that, like, you know, that idea of solo parenting,

comes out quite strong in my writing in a way that might, you know, might not always resonate with some because I am, you know, fully completely on my own with it.

Nikko Snyder (: 12:27

Yeah, and also like, I mean, you've said you're completely on your own with it. You also, you're not living in a place with extended family. As far as I know, you are fairly new to the community still.

Melissa Boulianne (: 12:39

Yeah, so yeah, mean it also it informed a lot of things that that abrupt transition ⁓ including where I work. ⁓ The job I was working at when I was living closer to you was a wonderful job with a great organization but it ⁓ unfortunately didn't pay what I needed it to pay to support my kids on my own and you know be able to do the things that

we love and to kind of advance myself in ways I needed to. And so I had to look for something that would do that. You know, right now here is a stable job and place where I was able to afford a house and sort of provide that the stability that the girls and I need for this time, this time in our life right now. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 13:31

You said you were about two and a half years into that new reality. Has it settled? Do you feel like a sense of I don't know what?

Melissa Boulianne (: 13:41

you know, one thing is being two and half years and I'm not writing as much anymore, or at least not about that. ⁓ And then also kind of it changes, like, you know, the feelings about it change over time. And new things come up for me about him and about his, you know, choices still, because he's still very much, ⁓ as much as he's that far away, still a part of their lives. And he does come back and visit for a couple of weeks at a time, you know, once or twice a year.

At least so far that's been the pattern. And they do talk to him, you know, quite often online as well. And so there's, you know, always kind of new things that come up for me out of that, out of whether it's, you know, kind of hearing his voice quite often in my house or whether it's, you know, the way he chooses to interact with them when they're here. It's definitely not about, you know, putting him down and that kind of stuff, but it is.

It's really something that, you know, if I take it back to writing, it's like that has really informed how I write and what I write. And especially, you know, it kind of comes in waves of processing all the thoughts and emotions around it, for sure.

Nikko Snyder (: 14:54

Yeah, I mean, I think you described it as writing saving your life, which is that's big. Yeah. Maybe you could talk a little bit about your your day job, like you are your teacher also. So and I was interested. was just reading through some of your poetry, preparing for this conversation. And I came across ⁓ a poem that you said you had maybe you had written inspired by a class that you were teaching and that you had read to your class. I think it was about

Melissa Boulianne (: 15:23

⁓ yeah. ⁓

Nikko Snyder (: 15:24

I

think it was about World War I. But yeah, I just was thinking about a few things about teaching. One is that I'm amazed by teachers because of the amount of energy I feel like it must require to be in a room with children all day and then come home and parent for the rest of your time. So yeah, curious to just to hear about the role of teaching in your life and maybe also just in your creative life. Is it an inspiration?

Is it a drain? Like maybe it's a bit of both.

Melissa Boulianne (: 15:58

Mostly, I would say it's a drain, but in a good way, ⁓ especially when I'm teaching things that I love, which this year I really have that privilege. Right now I'm teaching French and foods to high school students in high school. And then as well, have French for grades five to seven. And then I also am doing prep coverage for K to four. ⁓

So all this is kind of to say that like it's really creative taking, I guess you could say, in terms of planning for all these things. Even, you know, foods, it's like I have to be quite creative as I'm planning for these classes. But it's not, I don't see that as a drain. I see it as like using my creativity for something wonderful. So, I mean, it is very draining as well in other ways in terms of being, you know, in front of that many kids in a day. Even this year I had to

I had to learn about 150 names at the start of the year, was ⁓ quite a task. And that kind of drain that does also take away from writing, and I would say it doesn't leave me with as much creative energy for it. But I'm okay with that kind of a drain. That to me is a positive drain because it's still doing something that I love and being creative, but in a different capacity. But as far as, you know,

my writing coming out of teaching, it's pretty rare that that happens. Like that one piece that you're referencing, it was definitely not something that happens often to write about teaching in that way. There's a couple other pieces I would say. There's one too that I wrote. It's sort of based around a Shel Silverstein poem, Where the Sidewalk Ends. And that one was definitely inspired by, you know, watching my students.

⁓ sort of battle, and actually both pieces are about the battle with their phones. Let me see if I can find it.

Nikko Snyder (: 18:02

Quick aside, where the sidewalk ends is the title poem of Shel Silverstein's classic collection of children's poetry, which was actually banned from a handful of school libraries in the 80s and 90s for lines like, someone ate the baby, and which celebrated its 50th anniversary in 2024.

Melissa Boulianne (: 18:20

Anyway, so this is the one that's based around where the sidewalk ends and it's called our apologies shell.

Children no longer see where the sidewalk ends, touching grass replaced by screens and trends. And they'd rather not know, and they'd rather not grow, and know they'll never find the arrows to where the sidewalk ends. Theirs is a world where media reigns, shorts, reels, and TikToks course in their veins. An addiction created through snaps and WhatsApps unabated. They'd rather stay in their basement than ever know where the sidewalk ends.

The streets still wind and the river still bends. The garden still grows and the creator still tends. But they'll never see, they'll never be, how they'd be free in the place where the sidewalk ends.

Nikko Snyder (: 19:12

It's a bit heartbreaking.

Melissa Boulianne (: 19:15

Yeah, right. Well, for me, the one line, they'd rather stay in their basement than ever know where the sidewalk ends. That was straight out of a student saying something to the effect of like, well, I never leave my basement. And it was like, ⁓ man. And that's the case for so many these days that, you know, they're just in the glow of the screen rather than the glow of the sun for more hours.

than we care to realize sometimes.

Nikko Snyder (: 19:48

So do you navigate that for your own kids? I mean, I think I perceive you and your family to be lovers of the outdoors, nature, adventure. Is that a struggle for you guys to, I know it is for us, know, the screens, that constant beckoning?

Melissa Boulianne (: 20:06

Yeah, yeah, it is. more recently, it's become like two things. One, it's a little bit more of a battle, but also it's one of the things I had to let go of a lot more as a single parent. And, you know, it's like that age old, partly for my sanity, partly for theirs too. They're on there for sometimes, sometimes up to an hour a day with their dad. And that's how they connect with him.

And so, you know, I have to not see that as screen time. And then once they're done, I have to remember, okay, they haven't actually had screen time despite the fact that they've been on it for an hour. And so because of that, and then because of the way life is these days too, they definitely spend probably a couple hours a day, I would say. So we try to do things like screen free days for all of us, because I as well have my, you know, my moments of it too.

But you know, the main thing I do is that we talk about it, I talk about it with them. Not necessarily kind of the dangers of it, but like what is an acceptable limit? And you know, for them too, then they can help to set that limit and realize, okay, my time is up and what can I do that's not on my screen? That kind of stuff.

Nikko Snyder (: 21:21

I just want to take a sec to thank you for tuning in. Parenting Creative is an independent Canadian podcast. If you like what you hear, please help us grow by taking a few moments to sign up for our email newsletter at parentingcreative.com and by following us on social media. We're at Parenting Creative on Instagram and Blue Sky.

I know that you are raising a child who has been diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum. And I am wondering if, know, to the extent that you're comfortable and that it respects your family's boundaries, sharing the experience of single parenting, you know, in your context. And yeah, some of the challenges, some of the beauties, some of the conflicting emotions, I guess, that might come with that.

Melissa Boulianne (: 22:06

Yeah, well, and there are definitely all of those things. I would say, sorry, I'm being interrupted just a moment.

So I do, I have a child who is diagnosed on the spectrum and I would say, you know, at what is often referred to as the, it's not higher functioning, but lower needs end of the spectrum. But yes, also higher functioning in that sense. It's just that term's not really used anymore. Anyway, so I don't know what I really want to say about it or how much to say about it. It has impacted my life.

for the most part, I would say in challenging ways, but in ways that have, you know, forced me to grow in ways I never imagined growing. And probably one of the things that has come out of it most for me has just been patience. Yeah, I was going to read a piece actually that really is just about that and how much

it has taken, but how much as well it has given back to me in terms of what I have developed out of it. And this is called A Dash of Autism. What it takes to make the perfect scone. A pound of patience for when she wants to write out the whole recipe by hand rather than read it off your phone or the $700 tablet you bought her for just this purpose.

Two cups of kindness each time she yells or barks or talks way too loud for the given situation. A heaping pile of understanding that her angry tone of voice is her own frustration. And while none of it is directed or caused or meant towards you, her divergence means it sounds just so. Three slices of creative thinking when she's ready to explode because we don't have buttermilk and the goddamn recipe calls for buttermilk.

Thank goodness for Google. 11 years of deep breaths and 10 miles of frayed nerve endings, which will serve as a foundation for it all and top it off with any humor you have left in reserve. Laughter can thankfully overpower even the most bitter of moments. Heat it all in a small, hopefully uncluttered space, wait calmly nearby just in case a meltdown is yet to ensue, and then serve with a sigh of knowing tomorrow.

you'll do it all over again.

Nikko Snyder (: 24:47

Thank you.

Melissa Boulianne (: 24:48

Yeah. Just I have to pause for a moment and close my door again. Sorry. I'm going to lock it this time too. I thought it would be a quieter time, but apparently I was wrong. Yeah. So that's, I have actually quite a few pieces now I've written about it. It took me a long time to be able to write about it because there's so much that comes with.

diagnosis. For us, it also meant a lot of good things have come out of having that, diagnosis. yeah, especially in terms of being able to find ways that work for my child and understand through others' experiences too of parenting a child on the spectrum. sorry, I've lost my train of where the answer was going right now.

I think that that really is a huge part of being an autism parent is that you are constantly feeling lost in whatever you're doing because of how many times you're interrupted. And I've heard this is common with other kids who are on the spectrum, especially those with sort of the lower needs end of the autism spectrum, that they're always wanting to show

what they're doing or wanting to talk about it or wanting, you know, and so, you know, my child does so many things in a day. It's actually quite incredible how much they do in a day. And I am always being, even at, you know, kind of as they're getting into an older age where older age children who aren't on the spectrum wouldn't do this, but I'm always being asked to come and see, I want to show you what I'm doing. And I try really hard to, you know, still honor that. It's not always possible. But what it means is that

constantly interrupted with it. There's so many different things I could talk about with it, but really a big part of it is that I don't have as much time to write because of having a child on this spectrum because I just constantly get interrupted. ⁓ And that's okay.

Nikko Snyder (: 26:58

know, these interruptions, I also find that, you know, that is a central aspect of parenting. Like, how can I focus on anything for any amount of time? And yeah, also just sort of coming up against in my parenting and I experienced this sort of these conflicting emotions. you know, like two, at least two, maybe 20, I don't know, conflicting emotions coming to a head, you know, at the same moment that can feel very

sometimes disorienting. Anyways, I would like to just read a little piece of one of your poems that really spoke to me. And it speaks to this kind of, well, opposing emotions and just kind of living with those, guess, which I feel is a central part of my experience of parenting. ⁓ You wrote, for a moment I held back tears, not quite sure if they were delight or defeat. Opposing emotions occur simultaneously once children are part of your existence.

Yeah, just wondering about if you could speak at all to that experience in parenting and also clearly your maybe processing again, kind of using writing poetry to process some of these complicated pieces of our existence.

Melissa Boulianne (: 28:11

One of the things with having a child on the spectrum, at least from my experience, and I mean every experience is different, is that it's really hard to help a child on the spectrum, at least my child on the spectrum, manage their emotions and understand their emotions because they're very hesitant to talk about them and really often those who are on the spectrum see things in black and white. It's one way or the other.

There's no middle ground, there's no gray. It's either right or wrong, good or bad. And so the amount of conflict and tension that can create in a household, especially when you have another child as well who doesn't see that way. My other child has quite an astounding capacity for empathy, actually, and always has. And so it can create these moments. It's like...

Everyone is opposing each other and the only thing that me and my younger child can do is just is give in. Despite, you know, wanting things to go another way, we know that that her brain has gotten stuck. It's gotten stuck in this place of black and white and she will she will be unable to see any amount of gray in between. And so rather than cause her

to have a meltdown in that moment, we always, we have to relent. And ⁓ we've talked to my younger child about that. And we've all been to a lot of counseling, but it's that, you know, that opposition with yourself and always having to give in, which is, a part of any parent's experience. But for me as an AHSD parent, it really means sort of

like allowing for that opposition and always being on kind of the losing end of it, it feels like, means that my older child doesn't scream for an hour, which is, yeah, not good for anyone. So there's, yeah, just, I would say a lot more, yeah, a lot more give that we have to give because of it. But you know, the other side of it is that we have learned to do that. You know, my younger child started out incredibly just filled with empathy.

really to no end. And she's learned how and when to dole that out for that, you know, is healthy for her. And that's something that is a skill she'll take with her for life. Being an ASD parent is really challenging in so many ways. And one of those ways is the ways that you might feel judged by others for all different.

reasons. And then one of them too is really to make sure I'm not speaking for everyone's experience because everyone's experience as a parent is different. I know that my experience is incredibly easier than others who might have children who are on a different place in terms of the spectrum. And so a part of it's like I'm not, not that I'm close to talking about it, but it really is challenging to talk about it. And the other thing is I don't often get to talk about it unless it's kind of in a

a therapy sort of session, but it's really, quite an, I've found anyway, it's quite an isolated thing or an isolating thing, both isolated and isolating to be a neurodivergent parent.

Nikko Snyder (: 31:37

Thank you for your openness, vulnerability and talking about it. I think there is so much value in having honest conversations about all the challenges of parenting. That's the point of this podcast. But I think there is a value in visibility too, just in terms of increasing visibility of neurodiversity in our society. just that I think the more we normalize that

There are so many of us that are on all types of different parts of spectrums of all kinds. And that, you know, the more conversations we can have and the more visibility that exists around that, the better. So thank you.

Melissa Boulianne (: 32:21

It feels like it is more normalized in terms of a buzzword at least. And in terms of like when I'm in the school system, really, you know, being a teacher, you see it, how prevalent it is in the classroom, but outside of the classroom, not so much. then just, you know, the understanding of what does that actually mean, neurodivergent and who, what does it look like in a day-to-day basis for parents and for the kids and for.

how they interact with the world, because it's quite different from the stereotypes that exist. Often people might see it still as just behaviors and bad behaviors, and it's not. It's very different from that.

Nikko Snyder (: 33:03

in reflecting on this conversation that we were going to be having was thinking back to, I think the very first time that I saw you and your family in the world was out in public at a family ski day in this neck of the woods and you and your girls were there cross-country skiing and I was there with my family doing the same. And I remember that there were some behaviors happening that day that I was like...

kind like, wow, like what's going on with that family? didn't like to kind of my shame and embarrassment talking about it now, but was kind of like, like what's going on? Right? Like what is happening? and you talked about like, you know, judgment and sort of navigating that, like, people are experiencing different ways of being in the world and experiencing the world. And so it's, it's important that we understand that we develop a better understanding of, of

of how folks are in the world.

Melissa Boulianne (: 34:02

Yeah, this is kind of to my shame as I recently had a breakdown about just that being out in the world and behaviors coming up. And I said something to my child, it was one of those things you wish you could take back. it was, you know, we having one of those moments where I was speaking with an adult who was a parent of one of my children's friends and my older child came up and, you know, just

blatantly interrupted, had all these questions, was half yelling at me because that's often the way that she communicates. it just, obviously it made it that I could not interact now with this parent who I was having a lovely conversation with and had to turn and focus on my child. And so after the fact, I broke down in tears and said something to the effect of like, I have no friends because I'm constantly interrupted.

you guys need to, or not you guys, you need to let me have these conversations and didn't quite say it in that nice of words I'll say as well. And again, I was really upset and blamed her for something that really is absolutely not her fault and chose to kind of point out something in a way that was not kind to her. But at the same time, it was something that I needed to do. Like I needed to point that out to her that like,

And I've said it many times through their upbringing of like, if I'm speaking with another adult and having a nice conversation, like really, unless it's fire, flood, blood or kidnapping, you need to let me talk to them. ⁓ And it's just never sunk in with my older one. My younger one can have that patience. You she has learned, you'd say that, wait her turn if mom's talking to someone. For my older one, it's...

She wants my attention and needs to tell me something now. And it's always now, and I have to come now, and it's urgent, even though it's not. And so she's never had that sort of great ability to discern like, is this something that I can wait five minutes to tell mom or to show mom? ⁓ Or is this something that I don't even need to tell mom or to notice? Like, mom is having a conversation with someone I should wait to talk to her later.

It's impacted my friendships and that's really hard. It's really hard to think like, how am I being perceived and how would I be perceived if it weren't for that? And then to also then remember that it doesn't matter how I'm perceived and move forward from there and forget about that and remember that it's about my child growing up healthy, happy.

And all of us just staying sane. Yeah, I remember really, really well this moment. She was about four and it was like, you well before she was diagnosed and still in the age when, you know, we just perceived things as tantrums. And we were at a birthday party and it was one of those excessive birthday parties with bounce houses and all kinds of fun things set up and something happened in a bounce house and she

It was her turn to get off and she wouldn't get off. And so I had to kind of go in and take her and remove her from the bounce house. And she screamed, her top of the lungs scream that she does when she has a meltdown. And did so for a good 10 minutes. And I could just like feel every eye on me in that room.

and every eye judging me for having this, you know, awful child who throws a tantrum over a bounce house and why can't I control them? And I think it was a different moment having another parent say, that child needs some discipline. You know, your parents have kids without these challenges sometimes deal with as well, but not on such a regular basis as far as I've experienced anyway. I don't write about it enough or I don't

even think about it enough because I'm just always in the throes of it and dealing with it, especially in the last, you know, two and a half years. Yeah.

Nikko Snyder (: 38:27

Okay, so we've talked about a lot. We've talked about single parenting, we've talked about autism spectrum disorder, we've talked about constant interruptions, like parts of parenting. I would love to hear from you a little bit about kind of the concrete things that make it possible for you to create. You create this poetry and it's part of who you are and what you do. How do you do it? How do you fit it in a day? How does this work for you?

Melissa Boulianne (: 38:29

And

The thing I have to do really if I want to have that creative time and the flow for it is to get up really early, like to have a 5 a.m. wake up where I take an hour to two hours even sometimes and just sit and write. for me to write some of the pieces I've written are quite long and to be able to do that and to have that flow of thought that it takes, I need that quiet time in the morning to be able to

that. And so, yeah, that's really the main concrete thing is to set an alarm and get up at five. Yeah. And just do it before my whole day starts. And really when I do that, which is most of the time, you know, it helps set me up for a better day as well. Even if I'm not writing poetry, if I'm just sort of getting out thoughts or getting out the worries of the day ahead, whatever it is, that's sort of that time when I have to allow for that. And usually,

it flows into some kind of creative writing, even if it doesn't start that way. And so that's the main thing. The other thing I would say is kind of to make sure that I get parenting breaks now. So I try to find ways to do that now. And so my mom has been incredibly supportive of that and has taken the kids for at least a few days at a time. And then often when my girl's dad comes to this side of the

country, then ⁓ I'll get a break then in some way because he'll take them off somewhere else.

Nikko Snyder (: 40:31

when we first talked about having this conversation, one of the things you said was that you weren't sure you had enough to say or that, you the feeling that maybe you didn't have anything to say. And I'm just wondering how you navigate that, like, or how that relates to barriers that exist for you to either tap into that creative process or to share your work. Can you speak to that?

Melissa Boulianne (: 41:01

I think there's actually quite a few different sides to this. One is also kind of the confidence piece and feeling like there's maybe others who have so much more to say than I do. My experience isn't unique, that kind of thing. Maybe it's I don't think often about the fact that my experience is unique, but also have things that other people will feel a connection to. When I write and then I reread it, sometimes that's what helps me.

to feel that and to see that this might be something others are going through as well. I think often as humans, feel that we're alone in what we're experiencing and going through. The reality is that so many of us have the same challenges or similar challenges.

Nikko Snyder (: 41:47

At this point, the audio got so bad that when I listened back, I realized there was no way I could really use it. Near the end of our conversation, Melissa had read some more of her poetry and I really wanted to include that in the episode. So a couple weeks after we spoke the first time, we managed to find another few minutes to connect. This time it was in the evening after my own kids were in bed. And while we did manage to get a better take of Melissa's poem, kids continued to make their presence known. Here's Melissa.

Melissa Boulianne (: 42:14

Okay, I'm going to be about maybe 10 minutes most here with Nikko and then I'll come put you to bed, okay? Can you close my door for now and don't try not to come in unless it's emergency? Okay. Close, close, close.

Nikko Snyder (: 42:33

All right, well, I recognize you have impending bedtime to take care of, we can try this again. But yeah, thank you for coming back and talking to me again and agreeing to re-record your poem. had a bunch of, yeah, we had some technical challenges the last time and I really wanted to be able to do your poem justice with hopefully some good sounding audio, so.

Thank you for making it work. And yeah, if you want to just introduce your poem one more time and read it for us, that would be amazing.

Melissa Boulianne (: 43:09

Absolutely. So this poem is called That's My Line. Looking back as a mother, thinking about what I could have been, but how much the things that I could have been really add more to who I am as a mother now. ⁓ And that I'm so grateful to be able to use my talents for the things I do use them for. And that's what's,

adding to my life and adding to my kid's life right now is using writing in ⁓ ways to build them up more so than to build myself. So here we go. Sometimes I think about all the poems I haven't published, all the songs I haven't recorded or sold to others to help make themselves rich and famous.

I think about all the books I never self-edited, never sent off to publishers with fingers crossed. Maybe this one would think I was brilliant. I think about all the words I have stored away, tucked up like tired bats in an ancient attic, crumbling cardboard boxes, encasing their eloquence stored away for that, sometime.

But most times, I'm too busy trying to remember who likes what kind of sandwich or who doesn't like sandwiches at all. Too busy zipping coats because trying to do it with mittens is so fucking awkward, isn't it? With playing hostess to innumerable play dates, entertaining endless rounds of guess who and uno because this is what memories are made of, right? Too occupied with filling out

field trip forms and pouring over ski program waivers. Each signature I sign reminding me that my Jane Hancock has nothing to do with stardom and instead is synonymous with mom.

In the throes of parenting, I sidelined my passions, preferring instead to be incredibly my best at the infinite and ceaseless tasks of motherhood. And this is where I must say I wouldn't have it any other way. Wouldn't give up their fragile fingers that still fit in the palm of mine for all the phrases I've ever put to paper.

wouldn't trade a single second of their snuggles and laughter for any of the iambic pentameter I ever wrote in a response to a high school teacher telling me I couldn't. Wouldn't tear a single page from the days I've spent with them in exchange for any amount of 15 minute fame or spare change that might have come had I pursued the path of a poet or a songwriter. I have lived each day since their birth, knowing that

Unearthing their talents, passions, and desires, for me far exceeds any value I might find in chasing mine. I take pride in being the backdrop to their center stage, the solid ground for their coming of age, the hand that holds their checkered flag. I will always be ready at the horizon, waving them on as the sun rises on who they are meant to be. And this is to say, I'm okay.

with waiting for my sometime, with tucking my words into their lunch kits rather than having a top 10 hit. Because these notes mean more than any sung by Taylor Swift. Have a great day. I love you. See you at three.

These simple phrases that will see them through recess bullies and basketball practice, through after school drama classes and neighborhood fight clubs, through friendships and lack thereof, pencils and spitballs hurled at their heads, through the hurtful names that will assuredly be held like knives to their hearts. Kids can be so cruel. These sticky note lifelines are the most meaningful words I could ever write. And while they end up in recycling bins rather than

rustic addicts, I know their impact is far greater than any collection of coffeehouse musings I could ever publish. I don't quite know how to end. With kids, it never ends, does it? So I'll just say this. For now, I will let their names, birth dates, and health card numbers be my poetry. Let

Don't forget your lunch and please use a Kleenex ring out with delightful melodies. And I love you, sweet dreams. Be the novel I pen each night on their eyelids as I tuck them in. Always and forever more, these two girls will remain the beginning and end of everything I am because their lives have given me the best damn line I've ever written. Ma.

Nikko Snyder (: 48:19

Thank you, Melissa.

Melissa Boulianne (: 48:20

Thanks for letting me redo that.

Nikko Snyder (: 48:22

It's a beautiful poem. I love it.

Melissa Boulianne (: 48:24

Thank you.

Nikko Snyder (: 48:29

Is anybody out there?

Get an answer ⁓

give another big shout out to Melissa Boulianne for persevering to make this conversation happen and for being so open and thoughtful about her experience as a poet and parent. To check out more of Melissa's poetry you can find her on Facebook at Melissa Bee Poetry with Bee spelled like the pollinator. We'll share a link to her page in our show notes. I also want to thank you for tuning in. If you too make art while parenting or caregiving I see you in all the glorious struggle and I'm glad you're here.

If you want to hear more conversations about the alchemy of parenting and creative life, please help the podcast grow by visiting parentingcreative.com to sign up for our email newsletter. And if you're able, by becoming a founding member of Parenting Creative, you can find out more information about that on our website or in the show notes. Before signing off, I also want to thank Natural Sympathies for the use of their song, Hello, as the parenting creative theme song. And I also want to thank my partner in life, parenting and podcasting, Jeremy Sauer, for his audio wizardry to make this podcast sound so good, even through all my technical gaffes and goofs as a novice podcaster. Parenting Creative is created and recorded on the unceded and traditional territory of the Sinixt in the Slocan Valley. Thanks for listening and I'll talk to you soon.